Is this going to cost me more?

Spoonie_Turtle

So, stingy landlord just wanting to put the 1 storage heater in then, presumably doing the bare minimum to get it to an E regardless of how costly it will be for you who actually have to live there.  You need either multiple storage heaters, to replace the plug-in heaters, or not to use any really.  You cannot run plug-in heaters using day rate electricity on Economy 7, that's the most expensive option possible.

One bit of good news is that if you have an old single rate meter, to change it to Economy 7 they'd have to put in a smart meter which can very easily be changed back to single rate.

FreeBear

Cinders2001 said: Please let me know if I'm in a dither for nothing or tell me what I can have instead that I can suggest to my landlord that's a cheaper option.

I'd suggest looking at an Air Source Heat Pump - Whilst expensive to install, there is a £7500 grant from the government to help towards the cost. Quite a bit of upheaval for you though, as floorboards would need to be lifted for the plumbing. On the plus side, it would be cheaper to run.

MeteredOut

FreeBear said:

Cinders2001 said: Please let me know if I'm in a dither for nothing or tell me what I can have instead that I can suggest to my landlord that's a cheaper option.

I'd suggest looking at an Air Source Heat Pump - Whilst expensive to install, there is a £7500 grant from the government to help towards the cost. Quite a bit of upheaval for you though, as floorboards would need to be lifted for the plumbing. On the plus side, it would be cheaper to run.

Is this grant available to landlords?

But, it sounds like this LL is looking for the cheapest possible up-front cost, so I can't see them wanting to pay the £thousands additional funding that would still be required. 

FreeBear

MeteredOut said:

FreeBear said:

Cinders2001 said: Please let me know if I'm in a dither for nothing or tell me what I can have instead that I can suggest to my landlord that's a cheaper option.

I'd suggest looking at an Air Source Heat Pump - Whilst expensive to install, there is a £7500 grant from the government to help towards the cost. Quite a bit of upheaval for you though, as floorboards would need to be lifted for the plumbing. On the plus side, it would be cheaper to run.

Is this grant available to landlords?

I do believe private landlords qualify.

Scot_39

Cinders2001 said:

Scot_39 said:

E7 might work if use enough off peak - easier to achieve min required with NSH and HW immersion tank

The main idea behind E7 - is that it can work out cheaper than standard SVT single rate electricity if use around say third (32 to 42%+ say a rough guess) - of total power at off peak rates.

Why the range - well it can and does vary from region to region supplier to supplier and quarter to quarter even - as the underlying prices and demands shift.

So taking on your fear of it costing more - that comes down entirely to the timing and mix you use power. 

So taking an example - one supplier one region

So for instance the first region DD rates from EDF are currenty under Apr Ofgem SVT - for EM region are 13.56p / kWh off peak and 29.14p on e7 and this compares to 23.78p on single rate.  The breakeven point on that can be worked out c 34.4% if I got the maths right

Use enough - just over a third at the above 13.56p (c10p less than single rate) and then you can still afford to pay the c5.4p more on peak rate during the day on the remainder.

But stay on e7 when you don't use that 35% - means you will pay more.

Which then takes us to the NSH (Night Storage Heater)

The whole point of then fitting / using NSHs (really only one ?) is that they charge at the off peak rate - lower than single rate - and release the energy during the peak hours - so save you money on space heating.

If properly sized and a quality lot 20 or even better HHR - it can be programmed to release heat - just as you might a day panel with a timer - but as I say get that for the Off-Peak rate - not single - or Peak rates.

New storage heaters are a lot better than those fitted decades ago - the best in terms of both heat loss and control / programming options.

And that will also ideally apply to your HW immersion tank - even better if that is a mains pressurised tank and it also supplies your shower - as will cover even more of your HW demand (over 50% of my summer eelctric use is HW some days).

Some users will hopefully quote their typical e7 splits.

I am on E10 with all electric - inc 3 NSH in a 2 bed mid terrace, HW tank (shower cold fed electric - so sometimes sadly end up showering at peak rates) - so it's easier to access the off peak energy for washing machines during afternoon and evening slots etc - but I also pay more than e7 per kWh to gain those extra 3 hours.

I use c 50% peak / off peak in summer, but 75-80% annually off peak so it more than breaks even and over 90% in a really cold snap when really turn the heating up (well by my standards).

You say 1 storage heater - and insulation

What about heating other spaces ?

I have 3 in a 2 bed - mid terrace - for living room and upstairs / downstairs halls - and find don't need to use panel heaters in bedrooms etc to supplement their heating.

If you cannot get the % off peak split high enough

As others have said - many if not most suppliers will bill e7 dual readings at single rate - if you cannot get the % off peak high enough - with your usage profile. 

But depending on how landlord does electrics and then the meter operates - you might want to be careful they don't change any ALCS restricted load switching.

Wow, that's detailed, thank you!
Yes only one NSH is required and the extra loft insulation to bring up the EPC to an E rating.
We currently are rather lower than that! 😬
Which is odd, but it's never had an EPC done before and we've been here 30 years.

The rules change on landlords requirements regularly.

There was a proposal at one stage to lift the E requirement to a C ?  But many tennants (many already struggling with rents) pay in the end for such improvements.

My neice had an electrical inspection last year for first time.


Looking at your fuller descriptions I do worry a little about the overall balance you might achieve on e7.

But just one large heater can consume and release as much as 20-25kWh on a 7 hour charge of off peak energy daily if that's in a usable space - to replace other more expensive (electric) heating.

So even one could be a decent chunk of winter.


(Like me using the hall nsh to heat bedrooms via open doors rather than using normal panel heaters in bedrooms)

Are they fitting in room with coal fire or elsewhere - and have they told you model / size ?

[I am not aware how cost of open coal compares as a heat source per kWh energy into room (as opposed to up the chimney).  Anyone ?]


Some do manage the min breakeven without electrical heating - shifting other large loads like washing machines and dishwashers into off peak slots etc.

But then others have become aware they were not - as recent rising prices focussed their attention on bills after many years of just accepting the status quo - and so switched to single rate billing.

Sadly as a tennant you are at the mercy of landlords choices. And even some larger HA have made poor choices impacting runnning costs, let alone smaller landlords.

FreeBear

Scot_39 said: [I am not aware how cost of open coal compares as a heat source per kWh energy into room (as opposed to up the chimney).  Anyone ?]

An open fire is around 15% efficient as the bulk of the heat disappears straight up the chimney. If you could keep all the heat in the house, you'd get roughly 7.5-9.2kWh out of each Kg of coal (depending on type). So ~1.2kWh accounting for inefficiencies. In an efficient stove, this would rise to something in the region of 6kWh/Kg.

But coal is a dirty fossil fuel, and one we should really be moving away from.

Numbers from - https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/fthr/biomass-energy-resources/reference-biomass/facts-figures/typical-calorific-values-of-fuels/

MP1995

It is interesting that to get the property you rent up to the minimum recommended EPC E level that this will potentially end up costing you more money to run the property with your lifestyle.

As others have said with a smart meter you can change it to a single rate tariff if that suits your usage profile better.

Scot_39

FreeBear said:

Scot_39 said: [I am not aware how cost of open coal compares as a heat source per kWh energy into room (as opposed to up the chimney).  Anyone ?]

An open fire is around 15% efficient as the bulk of the heat disappears straight up the chimney. If you could keep all the heat in the house, you'd get roughly 7.5-9.2kWh out of each Kg of coal (depending on type). So ~1.2kWh accounting for inefficiencies. In an efficient stove, this would rise to something in the region of 6kWh/Kg.

But coal is a dirty fossil fuel, and one we should really be moving away from.

Numbers from - https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/fthr/biomass-energy-resources/reference-biomass/facts-figures/typical-calorific-values-of-fuels/

So this link says as of 2 years ago - 50kG of som e generic coal cost c£22.39

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/czmo/mm23

So that mean at your approx estimate of 1.2 kWh /kg - that costs £22.39/50 =  45p.

Or 37.3p / kWh

Wow that's expensive - and that's 2 years ago.

Some stove sites do quote that 15% - but others say the best - could be double that at c30%.

Taking a median of those two - 22% - would still be  25p / kWh

But just checked one ot two sites from google and their smokeless coal now closer to 70p per kG if order 500 kG. Possibly not a universal requirement - but my parents were iirc on smokeless decades ago (70s/80s) in a city suburb.

So could be even more expensive now even at the highest efficieny.

Sure read few years ago coal was only a little more expensive than gas - like 15p cf 10p - so cheaper than electric - but could be wrong.  And again that might not have been for open fire - but a stove / boiler.

So maybe the Op will be far better off with a NSH replacing their coal fire if thats where it's going - and putting in a chimney sheep / balloon - to stop heat losses up the chimney if do stop burning coal.

Swipe

Smokeless coal has doubled in price since the Ukraine invasion. I haven't my stove since.

FreeBear

Swipe said: Smokeless coal has doubled in price since the Ukraine invasion. I haven't my stove since.

Yup. I didn't buy any last year as I still had a few bags left from the previous. Have had the coal merchant ring me a couple of times this year trying to drum up business, but I can't justify paying nearly £20 for a 25Kg bag. Not when I can restock the wood shed for £300.