National Trust Membership cancellation within 14 days cooling off period

RefluentBeans

Undervalued said:

Interesting theoretical discussion! However, does anybody really believe that if the OP has not used the membership and blocked the direct debit, the National Trust will actually pursue them in the courts even if they have a valid case?

Can you imagine the negative publicity?

Agreed - I don’t think they’re that desperate for cash, and the PR is more important than £100/£200 ‘donation’. I’m also surprised that it can be considered a donation when there’s no option to change the amount of money you donate…

DullGreyGuy

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/416

The legislation requires that:

(3) Condition B is that the payment is not subject to any condition as to repayment.


The example given is also potentially telling, it isn't a case that the customer was able to cancel the purchase themselves but that the show was cancelled by the charity. Higher up in the doc it's also talking about ticket price + donation which is different to how the NT structure it which is that it is 100% donation. 

That repayments, as in loan repayments  not refunds
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments
Refunds and repayment are different and talked about as such.
The legislation only lists repayment it omits refunds.

https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/membership-matters-subscriptions-consumer-law-and-changes-to-gift-aid/

DullGreyGuy

Undervalued said:

Interesting theoretical discussion! However, does anybody really believe that if the OP has not used the membership and blocked the direct debit, the National Trust will actually pursue them in the courts even if they have a valid case?

Can you imagine the negative publicity?

Depends if they paid by DD or paid in full by card; ie is it about getting a refund or just stopping future payments, it's not abundantly clear from the original post. 

It's more likely simply not cost effective to pursue such a small amount beyond a few letters irrespective of the publicity. Not sure making people pay what they committed to pay is really "bad publicity", we haven't heard the OPs sob story of why they wanted to cancel within 14 days... won't be such bad publicity if its because they've realised they can get it cheaper by buying membership from Malta and technically breaching terms etc. 

Undervalued

DullGreyGuy said:

Undervalued said:

Interesting theoretical discussion! However, does anybody really believe that if the OP has not used the membership and blocked the direct debit, the National Trust will actually pursue them in the courts even if they have a valid case?

Can you imagine the negative publicity?

Depends if they paid by DD or paid in full by card; ie is it about getting a refund or just stopping future payments, it's not abundantly clear from the original post. 

It's more likely simply not cost effective to pursue such a small amount beyond a few letters irrespective of the publicity. Not sure making people pay what they committed to pay is really "bad publicity", we haven't heard the OPs sob story of why they wanted to cancel within 14 days... won't be such bad publicity if its because they've realised they can get it cheaper by buying membership from Malta and technically breaching terms etc. 

I used to be the treasurer of a membership organisation where the majority of members paid by direct debit. Overall it was worthwhile. However every year some direct debit subscriptions were recalled by members who had contacted their banks and falsely claimed that they had either told us they didn't want to renew or that we had failed to give notice of the amount etc. Our bank charged us for the privilege! 

HillStreetBlues

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/416

The legislation requires that:

(3) Condition B is that the payment is not subject to any condition as to repayment.


The example given is also potentially telling, it isn't a case that the customer was able to cancel the purchase themselves but that the show was cancelled by the charity. Higher up in the doc it's also talking about ticket price + donation which is different to how the NT structure it which is that it is 100% donation. 

That repayments, as in loan repayments  not refunds
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments
Refunds and repayment are different and talked about as such.
The legislation only lists repayment it omits refunds.

https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/membership-matters-subscriptions-consumer-law-and-changes-to-gift-aid/

There is debate as to if a refund is classed is allowed

The concern is that the statutory right to a refund under the Bill might prohibit charities from claiming Gift Aid on the basis that it amounts to a condition as to repayment.

On your link the LT did make a ruling

the Tribunal held that the mere possibility of a refund was not a condition as to repayment  

HMRC didn't appeal to the UT
For either of us to say 100% refunds are allowed or they are not would seem misleading as there is debate surrounding it

DullGreyGuy

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/416

The legislation requires that:

(3) Condition B is that the payment is not subject to any condition as to repayment.


The example given is also potentially telling, it isn't a case that the customer was able to cancel the purchase themselves but that the show was cancelled by the charity. Higher up in the doc it's also talking about ticket price + donation which is different to how the NT structure it which is that it is 100% donation. 

That repayments, as in loan repayments  not refunds
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments
Refunds and repayment are different and talked about as such.
The legislation only lists repayment it omits refunds.

https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/membership-matters-subscriptions-consumer-law-and-changes-to-gift-aid/

There is debate as to if a refund is classed is allowed

The concern is that the statutory right to a refund under the Bill might prohibit charities from claiming Gift Aid on the basis that it amounts to a condition as to repayment.

On your link the LT did make a ruling

the Tribunal held that the mere possibility of a refund was not a condition as to repayment  

HMRC didn't appeal to the UT
For either of us to say 100% refunds are allowed or they are not would seem misleading as there is debate surrounding it

And hence NT has taken the safer option because of the uncertainty of defining the monies paid as a pure donation and not payment for services to avoid the CCR and the refund rights

jon81uk

From the National Trust FAQ, it is a donation therefore cannot be cancelled.

"You can cancel your membership at any time, but please note that all memberships are non-refundable. Payments to the National Trust are classified by HMRC as a charitable donation. As such, we’re not able to refund a donation at any time. This applies to one-off payments and Direct Debit payments.

If you pay monthly, you’ll need to continue to pay until the end of your membership year as per your monthly agreement. We’d therefore recommend continuing to take advantage of the benefits until your renewal date, at which point you can decide to not renew."

National Trust membership FAQs | National Trust

Undervalued

jon81uk said:

From the National Trust FAQ, it is a donation therefore cannot be cancelled.

"You can cancel your membership at any time, but please note that all memberships are non-refundable. Payments to the National Trust are classified by HMRC as a charitable donation. As such, we’re not able to refund a donation at any time. This applies to one-off payments and Direct Debit payments.

If you pay monthly, you’ll need to continue to pay until the end of your membership year as per your monthly agreement. We’d therefore recommend continuing to take advantage of the benefits until your renewal date, at which point you can decide to not renew."

National Trust membership FAQs | National Trust

Maybe

However, if the OP has stopped their DD before any money was taken then surely nothing has been donated!

Or even possibly if they have recalled the first payment via DD protection scheme, then again the NT has received no donation?

I stick with my view that the NT are very unlikely to sue for the money, regardless of the rights and wrongs.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

Does period of performance not apply as it’s a 12 month membership?

Dont believe so.

If you think about the reason behind the carve out it's because a cinema has X seats in Screen 1 and once it's sold out thats it. Obviously most book cinema not too far in advance and so in principle almost everyone could cancel 1 hour before the performance and it goes from fully booked to running with just a few on viewers sold in that last hour. 

Hotels similar, people will have gone elsewhere to book because it was full, not like a TV in a shop thats out of stock where you wait for it to come back in.

The membership is different as in principle there is no cap in the number they can sell as it doesn't guarantee entry to every site on every day at all times so by selling to you that doesn't stop them selling to the next person. 

Thanks, yes looking at the guidance it does carry the same theme as you mention, i.e capacity that perhaps couldn't be refilled.

DullGreyGuy said:

The issues comes from GiftAid law which says they cannot reclaim the taxes if there is an opportunity for the donation to be reclaimed hence lawyers earned monies to rewrite the terms to make sure what you pay is a charity donation and not the purchase of a service to avoid cancellation rights and thus meaning on many sales they can claim the 20% rebate from HMRC

Well it's certainly very smart, I guess the government challenging a charity on their set up wouldn't look good to the public eye. 

HillStreetBlues

jon81uk said:

From the National Trust FAQ, it is a donation therefore cannot be cancelled.

"You can cancel your membership at any time, but please note that all memberships are non-refundable. Payments to the National Trust are classified by HMRC as a charitable donation. As such, we’re not able to refund a donation at any time. This applies to one-off payments and Direct Debit payments.

If you pay monthly, you’ll need to continue to pay until the end of your membership year as per your monthly agreement. We’d therefore recommend continuing to take advantage of the benefits until your renewal date, at which point you can decide to not renew."

National Trust membership FAQs | National Trust

It's also a good get out clause, blame the Tax man for not being able to refunds.