National Trust Membership cancellation within 14 days cooling off period

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Contracts for leisure are excluded from the right to cancel so I would assume that includes the National Trust? 

Contracts for leisure are only excluded when it is for a specific date not for a general admission pass like this. 

Does period of performance not apply as it’s a 12 month membership?

TELLIT01

Aylesbury_Duck said:

saversaver9 said:

user1977 said:

The National Trust and the National Trust for Scotland are completely independent organisations (albeit they have reciprocal recognition of membership for access to sites).

Yes, they are. Thanks. But if NT Scotland can cancel the contract within 14 days (their website says so), but NT England not doing so is odd

Not really, they're entirely separate organisations, similar in name only.

Not only seperate organisations, they are in different countries each of which have their own legal systems.

user1977

TELLIT01 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

saversaver9 said:

user1977 said:

The National Trust and the National Trust for Scotland are completely independent organisations (albeit they have reciprocal recognition of membership for access to sites).

Yes, they are. Thanks. But if NT Scotland can cancel the contract within 14 days (their website says so), but NT England not doing so is odd

Not really, they're entirely separate organisations, similar in name only.

Not only seperate organisations, they are in different countries each of which have their own legal systems.

Though the relevant laws are UK-wide on this point.

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Contracts for leisure are excluded from the right to cancel so I would assume that includes the National Trust? 

Contracts for leisure are only excluded when it is for a specific date not for a general admission pass like this. 

Does period of performance not apply as it’s a 12 month membership?

Dont believe so.

If you think about the reason behind the carve out it's because a cinema has X seats in Screen 1 and once it's sold out thats it. Obviously most book cinema not too far in advance and so in principle almost everyone could cancel 1 hour before the performance and it goes from fully booked to running with just a few on viewers sold in that last hour. 

Hotels similar, people will have gone elsewhere to book because it was full, not like a TV in a shop thats out of stock where you wait for it to come back in.

The membership is different as in principle there is no cap in the number they can sell as it doesn't guarantee entry to every site on every day at all times so by selling to you that doesn't stop them selling to the next person. 

The issues comes from GiftAid law which says they cannot reclaim the taxes if there is an opportunity for the donation to be reclaimed hence lawyers earned monies to rewrite the terms to make sure what you pay is a charity donation and not the purchase of a service to avoid cancellation rights and thus meaning on many sales they can claim the 20% rebate from HMRC

HillStreetBlues

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

35har1old

DullGreyGuy said:

saversaver9 said:

Hiya,

I requested cancellation of National Trust England membership within 24 hours of signing online. It has not been used. They are referring to their terms and saying that I need to pay for full 1 year, although I did mention the consumer contracts regulations 2013 providing me the legal right to cancel the subscription within a14 days cooling-off period. Seems they don't care. Surely they cannot be right?

I checked National Trust Scotland's website and they do allow cancellation within 14 days.

Thanks.

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

If you read the terms the money you pay is deemed to be a donation rather than payment for goods or services and hence falls out the scope of the CCR.

The CCR is going to be broadly replaced by Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024 for renewing subscriptions when it comes into force later this year. It has an explicit exclusion of subscriptions to charitable organisations for cooling off periods rather than relying on the slightly clunky definition that its a donation which was an unintended consequence of the CCR

The OP didn't say if he signed up to gift aid it's optional as not all people can gift aid

DullGreyGuy

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/416

The legislation requires that:

(3) Condition B is that the payment is not subject to any condition as to repayment.


The example given is also potentially telling, it isn't a case that the customer was able to cancel the purchase themselves but that the show was cancelled by the charity. Higher up in the doc it's also talking about ticket price + donation which is different to how the NT structure it which is that it is 100% donation. 

35har1old said:

DullGreyGuy said:

saversaver9 said:

Hiya,

I requested cancellation of National Trust England membership within 24 hours of signing online. It has not been used. They are referring to their terms and saying that I need to pay for full 1 year, although I did mention the consumer contracts regulations 2013 providing me the legal right to cancel the subscription within a14 days cooling-off period. Seems they don't care. Surely they cannot be right?

I checked National Trust Scotland's website and they do allow cancellation within 14 days.

Thanks.

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

If you read the terms the money you pay is deemed to be a donation rather than payment for goods or services and hence falls out the scope of the CCR.

The CCR is going to be broadly replaced by Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024 for renewing subscriptions when it comes into force later this year. It has an explicit exclusion of subscriptions to charitable organisations for cooling off periods rather than relying on the slightly clunky definition that its a donation which was an unintended consequence of the CCR

The OP didn't say if he signed up to gift aid it's optional as not all people can gift aid

Didnt say they have but the T&Cs have been constructed for the purposes of those that do gift aid the money which is the vast majority

HillStreetBlues

DullGreyGuy said:

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

That would be surprising as guidance for Gift Aid does deal with refunds and getting them waved.
It would seem strange to have guidance on refunds if they could never be granted due to claiming gift aid.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments

3.45.5 Where a person is entitled to a refund, HMRC expects charities to explain clearly that they can choose between either:

• getting a full refund
• waiving their right to a refund, in whole or part, and having their payment classed as a qualifying donation

Charities must not place any pressure on the person to waive their right to a refund. The person must positively choose to waive their right.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/416

The legislation requires that:

(3) Condition B is that the payment is not subject to any condition as to repayment.


The example given is also potentially telling, it isn't a case that the customer was able to cancel the purchase themselves but that the show was cancelled by the charity. Higher up in the doc it's also talking about ticket price + donation which is different to how the NT structure it which is that it is 100% donation. 

That repayments, as in loan repayments  not refunds
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-3-gift-aid#chapter-345-claiming-gift-aid-on-waived-refunds-and-loan-repayments
Refunds and repayment are different and talked about as such.
The legislation only lists repayment it omits refunds.

Alderbank

35har1old said:

DullGreyGuy said:

saversaver9 said:

Hiya,

I requested cancellation of National Trust England membership within 24 hours of signing online. It has not been used. They are referring to their terms and saying that I need to pay for full 1 year, although I did mention the consumer contracts regulations 2013 providing me the legal right to cancel the subscription within a14 days cooling-off period. Seems they don't care. Surely they cannot be right?

I checked National Trust Scotland's website and they do allow cancellation within 14 days.

Thanks.

This is a complex issue impacted by several pieces of legislation and ultimately comes back to what can and cannot be claimed for GiftAid... if something is refundable the charity cannot put it through GiftAid scheme in England.

If you read the terms the money you pay is deemed to be a donation rather than payment for goods or services and hence falls out the scope of the CCR.

The CCR is going to be broadly replaced by Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Act 2024 for renewing subscriptions when it comes into force later this year. It has an explicit exclusion of subscriptions to charitable organisations for cooling off periods rather than relying on the slightly clunky definition that its a donation which was an unintended consequence of the CCR

The OP didn't say if he signed up to gift aid it's optional as not all people can gift aid

The OP said  'They have not deducted any money from my account yet, and it was not through GiftAid any ways.' 

That suggests to me that he did not sign up to Gift Aid.

Undervalued

Interesting theoretical discussion! However, does anybody really believe that if the OP has not used the membership and blocked the direct debit, the National Trust will actually pursue them in the courts even if they have a valid case?

Can you imagine the negative publicity?