Penalty for Cigarette butt

TELLIT01

As above, if it had fallen from her hand and she immediately bent down and picked it up, without walking away first, no offence had been committed.  The OP says 'she was walking over to pick it up' which means she must have walked away first.  She is guilty of committing the offence of littering, end of story.

soolin

bobsyauncle__ said:

To clear things up for you all. 

1) It's not wrong that she smokes, if you have beliefs about it- that's yours and yours alone, not hers. 

2) She did not see the man, whether she dropped it on purpose or not which she has not informed me on, she still received a fine for it. He did not give her a chance to speak or explain herself.

3) He walked over as she was picking it up, and then said to leave it as she already committed the offence. 

4)These people are not even the government, they are volunteers. It just makes no sense to me but that's why I'm on here, to get opinions and see if there is anything that we can do, not get bashed for it.

1) fair enough
2) your opening post said that your mother 'was walking over to pick up her cigarette butt' which implies she knew she had dropped it but had initially left it.
3) That is correct, see the post from @Grumpy_chap - it is an absolute offence.
4) Can you clarify the volunteer bit, Are you saying this was just a random passerby and not a council official?  If this was just some random person did they demand money on the spot, or threaten to report her , if it was a council official (who would not be a volunteer) then has she received anything official yet?

Brie

I would understand her dropping the cigarette in order to step on it to extinguish it and thus be able to put it in a bin but otherwise it's littering and deserves a fine.  

Aylesbury_Duck

bobsyauncle__ said:

To clear things up for you all. 

1) It's not wrong that she smokes, if you have beliefs about it- that's yours and yours alone, not hers. 

2) She did not see the man, whether she dropped it on purpose or not which she has not informed me on, she still received a fine for it. He did not give her a chance to speak or explain herself.

3) He walked over as she was picking it up, and then said to leave it as she already committed the offence. 

4)These people are not even the government, they are volunteers. It just makes no sense to me but that's why I'm on here, to get opinions and see if there is anything that we can do, not get bashed for it.

1. Agreed, but that's what you get when seeking free advice from strangers on the internet.  If you want qualified legal opinion without personal views, you should seek legal advice.

2. Depending on his precise status (which doesn't seem to be known to you) that might be irrelevant.

3. Context is everything here.  You described a situation where she appeared to litter, then shortly afterwards attempted to correct her error by walking back to it.  That's very different from accidentally dropping something and immediately retrieving it.

4. Need more detail here.  You've told us nothing of the status of the person involved.  As for "bashing", smoking is always going to generate opinions because it's a horrible, antisocial and unhealthy habit.  There is nothing good about it.  See my answer to (1), above.  And it also sounds very much like an offence was committed, because there's nothing in your opening account that suggests it was accidental.

Okell

bobsyauncle__ said:

My mum recently got (1) fined £150 for "littering". As (2) she was walking over to pick up her cigarette butt, a man fined her for dropping it. That is all she done, drop it. She was picking it up and putting it in the bin but by then he said it was too late and that she needed to get fined. (3) Knowing what we know now, she should of just went into a store and avoided him. 

(4) I don't think she wants to take legal action or be rushed to court as such but is there anything that we can do? Or what rights does she have?

(1)   You mum hasn't been "fined".  She's received a Fixed Penalty Notice.  That notice should state what offence/legislation the notice was issued under.

Was it s87 of Environmental Protection Act 1990 (legislation.gov.uk)?  That section states that a person commits an offence if he or she drops litter AND "leaves it".


(2)   You say she was "walking over to pick" it up when the FPN was issued.  That sounds as if she had already dropped it and left it and - for some reason - was returning to pick it up.  What happened?  How had she dropped it?  Had she already "left it"?  Why was she going back to pick it up?   You need to be clear and precise, because if she had not left it, she had not committed a criminal offence.


(3)   What do you know now that you didn't know then?  How could she have avoided him by just going into a store?  I'm genuinely curious why you think this would have worked.


(4)   There is no legal action she can take.  She either pays the FPN or doesn't.  If she doesn't she needs to understand that the council may prosecute her in the magistrates court.  (The FPN should explain all this).

If she is prosecuted and the council can prove to the magistrates beyond reasonable doubt that she dropped litter (whether deliberately or not) and then left it, then she will be convicted and probably fined more than the original FPN cost.

Between the two of you I presume only she knows what actually happened and what the Enforcement Officer (possibly carrying a bodycam) might be able to prove.  It's up to her how much risk she's willing to accept...

One other thing - you've suggested elsewhere that the Enforcement Officer was a volunteer.  Where do you get this from?  Obvioulsy only authorised officers can issue FPNs.  I'd be slightly surprised if volunteers can, but I'm not sure.

sheramber

https://www.gov.uk/pay-challenge-fine-environmental-offence

Challenging the fixed penalty notice

If you do not agree that you committed the offence listed on the notice, you might be able to challenge the fixed penalty notice. Check with the authority that gave you the notice for information on whether you can challenge fixed penalties - their details will be on the notice.

If you’re able to challenge the fixed penalty, you’ll need to provide evidence to the authority that sent you the fixed penalty notice to show why you should not receive the penalty.

MeteredOut

bobsyauncle__ said:

To clear things up for you all. 

1) It's not wrong that she smokes, if you have beliefs about it- that's yours and yours alone, not hers. 

2) She did not see the man, whether she dropped it on purpose or not which she has not informed me on, she still received a fine for it. He did not give her a chance to speak or explain herself.

3) He walked over as she was picking it up, and then said to leave it as she already committed the offence. 

4)These people are not even the government, they are volunteers. It just makes no sense to me but that's why I'm on here, to get opinions and see if there is anything that we can do, not get bashed for it.

This reminds me of  a "if a tree falls in the woods and no-one sees it, you can't prove it makes a noise" type of argument.

It was still littering.

You haven't said on what authority the fine was given, but, there's numerous people with videos on social media platforms who see people getting caught littering and encourage them not to give any details when challenged as they can't enforce the fine without involving the police.

I have seen some eye-opening videos where the person giving the fine was seemingly partially hidden and watching a bunch of people smoking outside a tube station, and then made their move when one dropped their butt-end.

LightFlare

MeteredOut said:

bobsyauncle__ said:

To clear things up for you all. 

1) It's not wrong that she smokes, if you have beliefs about it- that's yours and yours alone, not hers. 

2) She did not see the man, whether she dropped it on purpose or not which she has not informed me on, she still received a fine for it. He did not give her a chance to speak or explain herself.

3) He walked over as she was picking it up, and then said to leave it as she already committed the offence. 

4)These people are not even the government, they are volunteers. It just makes no sense to me but that's why I'm on here, to get opinions and see if there is anything that we can do, not get bashed for it.

This reminds me of  a "if a tree falls in the woods and no-one sees it, you can't prove it makes a noise" type of argument.

It was still littering.

You haven't said on what authority the fine was given, but, there's numerous people with videos on social media platforms who see people getting caught littering and encourage them not to give any details when challenged as they can't enforce the fine without involving the police.

I have seen some eye-opening videos where the person giving the fine was seemingly partially hidden and watching a bunch of people smoking outside a tube station, and then made their move when one dropped their butt-end.

 No worse than police “hanging around” pubs at closing time waiting to catch drunk drivers.

If a certain demographic is likely to commit an offence then I see nothing wrong in affirmative policing.

The easy answer (as always) is to avoid getting caught - don’t commit an offence. How you get caught is irrelevant.

photome

Littering is a bane on society. There is no excuse ever, should be more FPN issued. 

Doesn’t sound like she dropped it accidentally 

born_again

sheramber said:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-challenge-fine-environmental-offence

Challenging the fixed penalty notice

If you do not agree that you committed the offence listed on the notice, you might be able to challenge the fixed penalty notice. Check with the authority that gave you the notice for information on whether you can challenge fixed penalties - their details will be on the notice.

If you’re able to challenge the fixed penalty, you’ll need to provide evidence to the authority that sent you the fixed penalty notice to show why you should not receive the penalty.

If it's anything like round here. These council employees all wear body cams which show the offence.