Penalty for Cigarette butt

bobsyauncle__

My mum recently got fined £150 for "littering". As she was walking over to pick up her cigarette butt, a man fined her for dropping it. That is all she done, drop it. She was picking it up and putting it in the bin but by then he said it was too late and that she needed to get fined. Knowing what we know now, she should of just went into a store and avoided him. 

I don't think she wants to take legal action or be rushed to court as such but is there anything that we can do? Or what rights does she have?

Zinger549

Why did she drop it in the first place?

powerful_Rogue

bobsyauncle__ said:

My mum recently got fined £150 for "littering". As she was walking over to pick up her cigarette butt, a man fined her for dropping it. That is all she done, drop it. She was picking it up and putting it in the bin but by then he said it was too late and that she needed to get fined. Knowing what we know now, she should of just went into a store and avoided him. 

I don't think she wants to take legal action or be rushed to court as such but is there anything that we can do? Or what rights does she have?

Doesn't make sense. Why was she walking back over to pick it up?

At a guess, she dropped it, walked off, saw the man and then went to pick it back up?

HumberFlyer

Imo...she littered. Of course she will go pick it up if seen or spoken to.. but to me it looks like she just threw it down and it would have been left there.... and you put "I don't think she wants to take legal action"     

Aylesbury_Duck

bobsyauncle__ said:

My mum recently got fined £150 for "littering". As she was walking over to pick up her cigarette butt, a man fined her for dropping it. That is all she done, drop it. She was picking it up and putting it in the bin but by then he said it was too late and that she needed to get fined. Knowing what we know now, she should of just went into a store and avoided him. 

I don't think she wants to take legal action or be rushed to court as such but is there anything that we can do? Or what rights does she have?

If she was seen littering and the man was an official authorised to issue a fine in those circumstances, she has a right to be fined, doesn't she?  Why was she "walking over to pick up her cigarette butt" if she accidentally dropped it?  That suggests she dropped it, realised she'd been spotted and walked back to pick it up.  Sounds like a slam-dunk to me.

soolin

This scenario seems to crop up a fair bit on various local forums and on here. Littering is littering, a lot of smokers don't really believe a single cigarette butt 'counts' but it does.

The only issue is whether or not the legislation allows for the person littering to pick up their litter when challenged and avoid a fine. 

Voyager2002

She should learn from this experience and stop smoking. That will save her far more than the £150 fine, which she should regard as a kind of tuition fee.

eskbanker

bobsyauncle__ said:

I don't think she wants to take legal action or be rushed to court as such but is there anything that we can do? Or what rights does she have?

Why would she take legal action?  If there was any, she'd be the defendant....

Grumpy_chap

soolin said:

This scenario seems to crop up a fair bit on various local forums and on here. Littering is littering, a lot of smokers don't really believe a single cigarette butt 'counts' but it does.

The only issue is whether or not the legislation allows for the person littering to pick up their litter when challenged and avoid a fine. 

AIUI, the Civil Enforcement Officers (CEOs) treat littering as a standard and non-defendable FPN, an absolute offence.

The Police can take a little more discretion.  I know in our area, the Police will exercise discretion in the case of an individual who has urinated as that also has to be dealt with by littering FPN process.  The Police prefer to ask the individual to use whatever the individual has available to mop up the spilt liquid - apparently that is far more effective as a deterrent.

The CEOs do not have the same discretion so issue FPNs.

bobsyauncle__

To clear things up for you all. 

1) It's not wrong that she smokes, if you have beliefs about it- that's yours and yours alone, not hers. 

2) She did not see the man, whether she dropped it on purpose or not which she has not informed me on, she still received a fine for it. He did not give her a chance to speak or explain herself.

3) He walked over as she was picking it up, and then said to leave it as she already committed the offence. 

4)These people are not even the government, they are volunteers. It just makes no sense to me but that's why I'm on here, to get opinions and see if there is anything that we can do, not get bashed for it.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

The specific offence is

A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it.

So if you drop something and then pick it up you haven't left it so it shouldn't be an offence.

There is government guidance on using FPN for littering here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/652e72fed86b1b000d3a50f2/Part_1A_-_Effective_enforcement.pdf

It's only guidance but states

If a littering offence is accidental - for example if something falls from someone’s pocket. In order to maintain public trust in the legitimacy of enforcement action against littering, enforcement action should only be taken where there is evidence of an intent to drop and leave litter. It is not in the public interest to take enforcement action if there is not clear evidence that the individual intended to cause litter.

The person issuing the fines probably has a body cam to capture the matter as evidence so the only argument I can see is either it was an accident or it wasn't left, beyond that pay the £150.

The wardens know smokers are more likely than average to litter so will follow them and it's a different offence not to give your name, etc. 

Only option is not pay and see if the council prosecute (which probably isn't wise based on what's been said).