Issue with finding leak in my flat

MikeJXE

Are your floors block and beam which they look like to me  or wood joists ?

Which of your rooms is the worst leak under ? 

where is the SVP ? 

Applebob204

MikeJXE said:

Are your floors block and beam which they look like to me  or wood joists ?

Which of your rooms is the worst leak under ? 

where is the SVP ? 

Honestly dont know about the block and beam, I have never had the flooring up or anything.

Well would say the bathroom and the airing cupboard are pretty close. The expansion vessel fell off the wall it was so damp(airing cupboard)

SVP - Soil vent pipe? Honestly no idea

gm0

Shower mixer cartridges can regularly fail at 15-20+ years old. The embedded kind can fail silently and leak to the rear of the unit. Plastic parts degrade and seals fail. And it drips and dribbles well before you get to a cold mains pressure leak.  But enough to cause problems going on continuously.

If these were there from new build.  Only once these are ALL checked - if the place and its bathrooms having them is of a relevant age - would I go digging around lookng for less common infrastructure vertical soil stack joint leaks and such like which also happen but with less monotonous regularity.

ThisIsWeird

Hi Applebob.

It would appear that you have carried out all the investigation that you reasonably can in your own flat, so you should be free from any claim of negligence.

It strikes me as tho' the obvious method of tracing this leak is from the flat below by cutting an inspection opening in the ceiling, I guess starting either in the area where the stain first began, or where it's currently most damp. Of course, water can travel surprisingly long distances on near-level surfaces, so can present itself at a different point to where it arrived, but you've got to start somewhere! It should, in most cases, be fairly easy to trace the arrival route of the water that's causing a damp patch - the tracks should be fairly obvious, whether it's directly from above, or has travelled a distance across the top of the ceiling boards.

I'd have thought that it should at least be easy to determine whether it's coming down from the flat above (yours), or - say - from the shared pipe boxing.

It's very likely that some of the ceiling boards will need replacing in any case, but even if not, cutting a small inspection opening and making it good afterwards is not a big task.

My bro had a leak come through the ceiling of the flat below when I was fitting a new kitchen for him many moons ago. I had actually been doing the plumbing under his floorboards the day before, so the phone call from the neighbour was quite a shock. Astonishingly, it was actually caused by a blocked gulley outside (this was 5 storeys up) which caused the rainwater to overflow and find its way into the ceiling void. I don't think my heart has recovered. A subsequent leak, far more recently, was traced to a piece of copper pipe in his floor which had - for no apparent reason that could be identified - suffered a type of micro-crack. I've seen the removed piece, and it just didn't make any sense. Anyhoo, in both situations, the issues were tackled and fixed by the Freeholder, who owned the whole building. He did have a list of his own builders, plumbers and sparkies that he always used, and the repairs were covered by the normal service charge/sink fund.

Your FH seems to be happy to drag their feet. They should be far more active in resolving this, as delay can only cause more damage, and if it's been going on for longer than folk actually know, possibly even rot.

Do you have a recordable way of demonstrating that you have had plumbers in to investigate your flat, and that investigation via the flat below is now the sensible option?

I don't suppose you added Legal Protection to your contents insurance? If you have, then call them up for advice and guidance. If you haven't, I think it's worth considering on renewal.

MikeJXE

I had a second look at your video and froze part of it,

The 100mm pipe is the SVP, where does it go ?

Does it feed the flats above ? Listen for them running water/flushing the toilet 

It has a junction which probably goes to the toilet and may pick up the bath/basin on the way.

Move the pink insulation and check if the top of the plasterboard is wet (if it's a wood floor)

Where does the 50mm white plastic pipe to the left come from/go ?

Where in relation to SVP is the toilet ?

A floor plan would help. 

Looking at the floor in that room should tell you if it is block and beam or wood joists and floor boards 

From what I see here and I could be wrong are wood floors, The 100mm pipe that runs between joists to pick up the toilet may also pick up the bath, a good chance that is where the leak is. 

ThisIsWeird

It may be wroth reading your deeds, Applebob, to see if it clarifies who is responsible for what.

My understanding of such FH/LH situations is, anything that is part of the 'fabric' of the building is the FH's responsibility. So, with plumbing, that would be all the pipes and services that were installed before the interior of the property was 'fitted out'. Eg, soil waste pipes, pretty much from the point they disappear through the wall or floor, the incoming mains pipes up to the point they physically appear, H&C pipes installed for the kitchen and bathrooms, CH pipes which are under the floor, all that kind of stuff. Then the LH takes over responsibility from the 'fabric' onwards - the toilet fittings and connections, shower, kitchen sink, radiators, boiler, etc. This also makes sense, in that the FH should have a concern about any damage being caused to their building. Buildings insurance would usually cover such issues, and a thoughtful FH would have a policy in place that includes emergency cover, and anything else that could help prevent the building from being damaged.

All the other parts of the plumbing - the bathroom installation, shower, kitchen, radiators, boilers, etc, are the responsibility of the LH.

So, that toilet leak was obviously 'yours'. If the shower unit is found to be leaking behind that wall, then ditto. Bath or shower waste, ditto - to the point it exits the flat and connects to the originally-provided plumbing system.

Obviously any alterations that have been made to the original plumbing - say a waste pipe was extended under the floorboard in order for the sink unit to be repositioned - then any leak caused by that would also now be the LH's responsibility. If that work was carried out carelessly, then that could add 'negligence' to the mix.

That's my general understanding of such situations.

You seem to have been able to discount it being your W/M, D/W, sink, toilet, and bath. Does your boiler have a pressure gauge? If so, have you been topping it up regularly? When you look in through that hole in the bath side panel towards the taps and shower end, can you see beyond the bath into the boxed area that holds the shower unit? Ie, if the shower unit was leaking, would you be able to see the evidence from under the bath?

Having done all of that, I think it's fair to say you have carried out all you can reasonably be expected to do from your flat. Yes, your floors may have to come up to investigate further, but I don't think that is your 'responsibility'. And, any leak found in a faulty pipe or fitting under your floor would also not be your responsibility.

In addition, it seems the obvious way to investigate this leak is from below; not only are ceilings usually cheaper and easier to repair than floors with coverings, but they are already damaged, and they also should provide a trail that could lead to the source. Your FH seems to be struggling with their basic responsibilities here.

That's my understanding.

Applebob204

ThisIsWeird said:

It may be wroth reading your deeds, Applebob, to see if it clarifies who is responsible for what.

My understanding of such FH/LH situations is, anything that is part of the 'fabric' of the building is the FH's responsibility. So, with plumbing, that would be all the pipes and services that were installed before the interior of the property was 'fitted out'. Eg, soil waste pipes, pretty much from the point they disappear through the wall or floor, the incoming mains pipes up to the point they physically appear, H&C pipes installed for the kitchen and bathrooms, CH pipes which are under the floor, all that kind of stuff. Then the LH takes over responsibility from the 'fabric' onwards - the toilet fittings and connections, shower, kitchen sink, radiators, boiler, etc. This also makes sense, in that the FH should have a concern about any damage being caused to their building. Buildings insurance would usually cover such issues, and a thoughtful FH would have a policy in place that includes emergency cover, and anything else that could help prevent the building from being damaged.

All the other parts of the plumbing - the bathroom installation, shower, kitchen, radiators, boilers, etc, are the responsibility of the LH.

So, that toilet leak was obviously 'yours'. If the shower unit is found to be leaking behind that wall, then ditto. Bath or shower waste, ditto - to the point it exits the flat and connects to the originally-provided plumbing system.

Obviously any alterations that have been made to the original plumbing - say a waste pipe was extended under the floorboard in order for the sink unit to be repositioned - then any leak caused by that would also now be the LH's responsibility. If that work was carried out carelessly, then that could add 'negligence' to the mix.

That's my general understanding of such situations.

You seem to have been able to discount it being your W/M, D/W, sink, toilet, and bath. Does your boiler have a pressure gauge? If so, have you been topping it up regularly? When you look in through that hole in the bath side panel towards the taps and shower end, can you see beyond the bath into the boxed area that holds the shower unit? Ie, if the shower unit was leaking, would you be able to see the evidence from under the bath?

Having done all of that, I think it's fair to say you have carried out all you can reasonably be expected to do from your flat. Yes, your floors may have to come up to investigate further, but I don't think that is your 'responsibility'. And, any leak found in a faulty pipe or fitting under your floor would also not be your responsibility.

In addition, it seems the obvious way to investigate this leak is from below; not only are ceilings usually cheaper and easier to repair than floors with coverings, but they are already damaged, and they also should provide a trail that could lead to the source. Your FH seems to be struggling with their basic responsibilities here.

That's my understanding.

I couldnt see anything specific in the lease agreeement about such a thing.  The property does not have gas or any radiators so that rules that out.

I cant see anything beyond really what you can see in the video behind the shower.

Its difficult to understand what is "my pipes" and what is the building pipes... like where my immersion heater goes underground / behind a wall to a tap for example.

I have tried to argue just opening up the ceilings, but this was rejected.

Applebob204

MikeJXE said:

I had a second look at your video and froze part of it,

The 100mm pipe is the SVP, where does it go ?

Does it feed the flats above ? Listen for them running water/flushing the toilet 

It has a junction which probably goes to the toilet and may pick up the bath/basin on the way.

Move the pink insulation and check if the top of the plasterboard is wet (if it's a wood floor)

Where does the 50mm white plastic pipe to the left come from/go ?

Where in relation to SVP is the toilet ?

A floor plan would help. 

Looking at the floor in that room should tell you if it is block and beam or wood joists and floor boards 

From what I see here and I could be wrong are wood floors, The 100mm pipe that runs between joists to pick up the toilet may also pick up the bath, a good chance that is where the leak is. 

I believe that pipe goes into the wall behind. I can sometimes hear people aboves water going down behind that wall when the shower for example. So I assume its all together?

I cant reach down there to feel anything unfortunetly, the toilet and the fittings get in the way.

I think all the pipes just dissapear into that wall  (the waste pipes) and those pipes run down kind of inbetween the building.

I dont have a floor plan unfortunetly.

Thanks for your help.

I would have thought that if it was the waste pipe that was the issue, it would stink down there? Even into my flat?

Applebob204

MikeJXE said:

I had a second look at your video and froze part of it,

The 100mm pipe is the SVP, where does it go ?

Does it feed the flats above ? Listen for them running water/flushing the toilet 

It has a junction which probably goes to the toilet and may pick up the bath/basin on the way.

Move the pink insulation and check if the top of the plasterboard is wet (if it's a wood floor)

Where does the 50mm white plastic pipe to the left come from/go ?

Where in relation to SVP is the toilet ?

A floor plan would help. 

Looking at the floor in that room should tell you if it is block and beam or wood joists and floor boards 

From what I see here and I could be wrong are wood floors, The 100mm pipe that runs between joists to pick up the toilet may also pick up the bath, a good chance that is where the leak is. 

Here is another video showing behind the shower a bit more https://youtu.be/4h0iAaxGBLs

ThisIsWeird

Ok, seems pretty clear from that video that you can see beyond the bath's end from through the bath panel where the shower's plumbing lies. Ditto from the access above the cistern - you can see into that boxed-in service duct from there too. It does look dry, so that seems to rule out a water leak from flats above, at least via that area.
That doesn't rule out a leak from above, if course, coming from a different route.
But, the most likely is surely from a pipe - waste or supply - that is in your floor. And that, in turn, brings us back to how (a) who is responsible for it, and (b) how to locate it - wreck your flooring taking up sections at random in random place in various rooms, or make access holes in the ceiling.
That's where I'm stumped - I don't know how you oblige or force the FH/ManCo to act in the most logical manner, which is to activate the trace via the insurance. I just don't get the 'insurance co is reluctant to act' part, so the ManCo is looking instead at a separate £1200 service for this? 
What possible justification do they have for not following what is surely the correct protocol - activate this via their insurance?
If it's a pipe in your floor, then who is 'responsible'? Unless specified in the deeds, the general rule appears to be - if it's 'communal', then it's the FH, if solely for you, then you. But that's a crude rule - that soil pipe coming down that boxed-in section, at what point does it cross from 'communal' to LH? That mains water pipe - ditto. If you ripe up all your floors and find it's a shared pipe, who pays to sort the floor damage?
In practice - from the few situations I'm aware of - when a leak is not from obviously within a flat, then the ManCo takes over. That seems entirely sensible to me. If the leaking pipe is then discovered to have been modified unprofessionally, then the FH has the option to hold the LH liable (tho usually they don't, unless it's really negligent stuff).
Don't know what to suggest. Perhaps one more attempt - in writing; that you, and a plumber, have checked all the accessible parts of your flat, and all appliances and plumbing fittings, and found it all leak-free. Ergo everything you, as a LH, is responsible for has been checked. That, by definition, leaves either another flat as being the source, or a fault in the building's waste or water supply system - ergo, as you understand it, the FH's responsibility. And then reiterate the most logical way to trace the leak.
How many flats in the building? I presume the worst case scenario, that of this £1200 trace charge, would be a shared cost? 
Your ManCo seems a bit carp.