Multiple tickets from PCM over several months for my own leasehold space and car.

BlamfordBlue

Hello,
I've have had this issue slowly building over the last 8 months and finally received a letter before claim for one of the tickets. Am planning to defend myself in court or better yet, scare them off and was hoping to get some direction in doing it correctly.

Quick summary:

- All tickets for the same car (which I'm the keeper of), in the same space in my flat blocks private outdoor car park. It's a paper permit car park operated by PCM. I'm the leaseholder and the lease includes that specific space. The Title Register makes no mention of parking at all just normal rights and easements to my land.

- My car had a major water/electronics issue, which resulted in condensation on front windscreen so I put the permit on the side window as I got a ticket for it falling off because of the water (which PCM actually accepted my appeal for).
 It is essentially written off and hasn't moved since last summer. I have since received lots of tickets (unsure on total number but at least 10+), it seems random when they decide that it's worth a ticket, but when they do their reason is the permit isn't in the front windscreen. They make sure in all evidence images to only take pictures from front-on as a side view would make it obvious that the permit is unmissable to someone walking towards the car.

- They rejected my first appeal for the first ticket, and since then the tickets are at various stages of PCM, Debt recovery and Gladstone's.

- I sent an email to gladstone's 3 weeks ago, outlining that I am the leaseholder and will happily defend myself in court etc. I wrote that it was in reference to all tickets of that site and car but only gave one reference number. I got an automatic email saying received but have had no response since then.

- I received the first 'letter before claim' this week, it only mentions one ticket, different then the one I emailed about.

I just have some questions on what to do next, I don't want to mess something up as I understand I'm in a strong position being a leaseholder.

1. Do I reply to this Gladstone's LBC with essentially the same email I sent them about the other ticket? I'm not certain but it seems to have scared them off.

2. How do I get them to consolidate all tickets into one? Would it be by submitting an SAR to PCM and then demanding Gladstone's treat it as one. Or do I not even want them to do that and just defend the initial one which would essentially cancel all of them if I was successful?

3. Is it worth speaking to my flats management company before it goes to court? In the past they've essentially been useless and conceded 'we have no sway over PCM' but I'm thinking with the large amount of tickets they might be kicked into doing something useful.


Thanks to anyone who helps, I'm happy to fight in court but the large amount of tickets has put some anxiety into the mix.

h2g2

Firstly, check what your leasehold agreement says about parking, permits, etc...

2. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6428244/received-claims-from-qdr-relating-to-numerous-tickets-for-motorbike-in-residence-parking/p1 <--- This recent thread has someone defending multiple claims, including using estoppel to force all the claims to be handled at once, and the arguments around it.

3. Perhaps, but in my experience they'll argue that they have the right to enforce parking charges and refuse to help you. It's worth a try, though.

Jonas_264

I had one of these against DCB Legal the other day.  Multiple tickets all in my own space.  The Judge threw it out because the parking company could not show any authority to operate nor was the area they operated in properly defined by way of any map in the agreement between the Landowner and themselves.

I didn't even get to the primacy of contract arguments I had pleaded in my Defence - the Judge was so keen to find his own reason to throw it out, ha ha!

But yes, you are running primacy of contract that your lease trumps any agreement between the parking management company and property management company which you were not a party to.

If there was no deed of variation and / or no proper notification to you, which you would have had to agreed to form a legally binding contract, then you are virtually certain to be in the clear.

LDast

PCM are notorious for these kinds of scams on residential car parks. Their main income stream is from low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who have no idea of their rights and basic civil law who keep funding them.

If your parking space is demised in your lease and there is no other mention of any requirements to display a permit or to be fettered by a third party and pay speculative invoices from an unregulated private parking company, then you will win if they are stupid enough to let this go all the way to court.

In your comms with the management company, you should be reminding them of their obligations and how they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents. If they don't or refuse to get their agent to cancel the PCNs, ask the who is the monkey and who is the organ grinder in their contractual relationship with their agent.

You should also tell them to instruct their agent to cease and desist from any future action that beaches your rights under your lease agreement. You could tell them that you only showed a permit out of courtesy but you will no the dong so in future and that if their agent cannot whitelist your vehicle, then you will take action against both them and their agent for harassment.

BlamfordBlue

h2g2 said:

Firstly, check what your leasehold agreement says about parking, permits, etc...

2. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6428244/received-claims-from-qdr-relating-to-numerous-tickets-for-motorbike-in-residence-parking/p1 <--- This recent thread has someone defending multiple claims, including using estoppel to force all the claims to be handled at once, and the arguments around it.

3. Perhaps, but in my experience they'll argue that they have the right to enforce parking charges and refuse to help you. It's worth a try, though.

Essentially nothing other than passing control to PCM, I know someone else in my block has won against by them by being the leaseholder, so I assume nothing in it supersedes the leaseholder's usual right's to the land. 

And thanks for linking the other thread, very helpful

BlamfordBlue

Jonas_264 said:

I had one of these against DCB Legal the other day.  Multiple tickets all in my own space.  The Judge threw it out because the parking company could not show any authority to operate nor was the area they operated in properly defined by way of any map in the agreement between the Landowner and themselves.

I didn't even get to the primacy of contract arguments I had pleaded in my Defence - the Judge was so keen to find his own reason to throw it out, ha ha!

But yes, you are running primacy of contract that your lease trumps any agreement between the parking management company and property management company which you were not a party to.

If there was no deed of variation and / or no proper notification to you, which you would have had to agreed to form a legally binding contract, then you are virtually certain to be in the clear.

Amazing to hear, and congrats. Does sound very similar to mine and from browsing past cases I assumed that I'm in a very strong position legally. My main fear is cocking part of the process up.

BlamfordBlue

LDast said:

PCM are notorious for these kinds of scams on residential car parks. Their main income stream is from low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who have no idea of their rights and basic civil law who keep funding them.

If your parking space is demised in your lease and there is no other mention of any requirements to display a permit or to be fettered by a third party and pay speculative invoices from an unregulated private parking company, then you will win if they are stupid enough to let this go all the way to court.

In your comms with the management company, you should be reminding them of their obligations and how they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents. If they don't or refuse to get their agent to cancel the PCNs, ask the who is the monkey and who is the organ grinder in their contractual relationship with their agent.

You should also tell them to instruct their agent to cease and desist from any future action that beaches your rights under your lease agreement. You could tell them that you only showed a permit out of courtesy but you will no the dong so in future and that if their agent cannot whitelist your vehicle, then you will take action against both them and their agent for harassment.

Cheers, the management company is very large and very !!!!!!, it's tough to get any real action done, but I'll send an email outlining the situation anyway.

Last time I spoke to them they were apparently considering stopping working with PCM but haven't heard much since. In the last year the wardens have become much more aggressive with the ticketing and it's not just me who's receiving ridiculous tickets.

1505grandad

Just thinking out loud  -  hopefully nothing in the docs to suggest that only roadworthy vehicles are allowed that could be used against you?

" It is essentially written off and hasn't moved since last summer."

h2g2

1505grandad said:

Just thinking out loud  -  hopefully nothing in the docs to suggest that only roadworthy vehicles are allowed that could be used against you?

" It is essentially written off and hasn't moved since last summer."

This is unlikely to be a breach of the PPC's supposed T&Cs. That would be an issue between the management company and the resident and resolved in exactly the same way any other breach of the leasehold would be - i.e. not by a private parking company.

1505grandad

h2g2 said:

1505grandad said:

Just thinking out loud  -  hopefully nothing in the docs to suggest that only roadworthy vehicles are allowed that could be used against you?

" It is essentially written off and hasn't moved since last summer."

This is unlikely to be a breach of the PPC's supposed T&Cs. That would be an issue between the management company and the resident and resolved in exactly the same way any other breach of the leasehold would be - i.e. not by a private parking company.

I was particularly thinking of this:-

"Cheers, the management company is very large and very !!!!!!, it's tough to get any real action done, but I'll send an email outlining the situation anyway."

Zbubuman

Are you able to take a photo of their signs and put it on here ? Wanna see what their terms state on displaying permits.  Does it specifically state permit needs to be displayed on the windscreen, or just that you need to display a permit ( in which case you are compliant with the terms, irrelevant where it is actually stuck - Front , back , side ).

The onus is entirely on them to prove that there was no permit displayed at all.