Universal credit payment went from £98 to £207 overnight, why?

ColonelCabbage

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

What PIP questionnaire?  Did you actually apply, and if so did you challenge the outcome?  It's not uncommon to go from 0 points at the first decision to challenging it and getting 12+ on both sections for the highest possible PIP award.

All the advice above remains true.  It's up to you whether you choose to read the source given for PIP to see that we're telling the truth about how it's actually assessed according to the law.  It's trickier to point to sources for the WCA because the government handbook is not public-friendly, but the principles of being able to do things safely and repeatedly still apply to the activities and how they're assessed. 
And depending on your mobility you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue and/or shortness of breath.  Plus if doing do would make you deteriorate (depending on the condition) then that still counts as not being able to do it.  And that's just the first descriptor.

Some useful WCA info here
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/know-hows/employment-and-support-allowance-esa-activities-and-descriptors-and-substantial-risk

We can't make you read or consider it but you may as well, to make sure that your struggle is definitely necessary under the current benefits system and that you're not missing out on anything you could qualify for.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes I applied, got zero everywhere, made appeal, then received a letter confirming/insisting the decision was right.

"...you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue": there is a very obvious gap between this kind of thing on one side and being fully healthy/able on the other side. The system implicitely assumes that there does not exist any gap between these two sides. My existence is sufficient as a counter-proof: for the life of me I CANNOT work full-time even though I CAN repeatedly/safely/reliably do all the things mentioned in the PIP.

And again, I assume there are dozens or hundreds of thousands of people across the UK in the same situation. Why is it so hard to admit the system flawed in this regard?

@Muttleythefrog thanks but with just a few hours per day of work you can't possibly live in the UK.

Did you appeal all the way to tribunal, or just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration?  MRs are notoriously useless, they usually don't actually consider the decision, just stick with the initial one.

Also not sure why you're equating PIP and working, PIP is based on daily living not ability to work.  Loads of people claim PIP and work, even full-time.  (Although not so many of us who are disabled due to illness, to be fair.)

I do readily acknowledge that there are people who are ill and disabled who do fall through the gaps because the thresholds for PIP and ESA/UC LCWRA are high.  But there are also LOTS of people who are wrongly denied and thus believe they don't qualify - understandably, because in a decent society we should be able to trust the government department administering benefits for people who are potentially vulnerable and disadvantaged - when in reality they do qualify, when properly assessed according to the law. 
This is the reason we strongly advise people to thoroughly look into it and understand how it is supposed to be assessed, so that they will know whether the decision they get is probably correct or needs to be challenged.

I don't think it's constructive for me to engage any further here.

Right but since I got 0 everywhere do you think I stand a chance if I appeal to a tribunal? If I had weak scores I don't know having 0 across the board...

About food, that's a small part of my monthly expenses. Even if I reduce food budget by 50%, my overall situation won't change much.

@Spoonie_Turtle: just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration. No problem, I do thank you for your useful input in this conversation anyway.

Spoonie_Turtle

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

What PIP questionnaire?  Did you actually apply, and if so did you challenge the outcome?  It's not uncommon to go from 0 points at the first decision to challenging it and getting 12+ on both sections for the highest possible PIP award.

All the advice above remains true.  It's up to you whether you choose to read the source given for PIP to see that we're telling the truth about how it's actually assessed according to the law.  It's trickier to point to sources for the WCA because the government handbook is not public-friendly, but the principles of being able to do things safely and repeatedly still apply to the activities and how they're assessed. 
And depending on your mobility you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue and/or shortness of breath.  Plus if doing do would make you deteriorate (depending on the condition) then that still counts as not being able to do it.  And that's just the first descriptor.

Some useful WCA info here
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/know-hows/employment-and-support-allowance-esa-activities-and-descriptors-and-substantial-risk

We can't make you read or consider it but you may as well, to make sure that your struggle is definitely necessary under the current benefits system and that you're not missing out on anything you could qualify for.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes I applied, got zero everywhere, made appeal, then received a letter confirming/insisting the decision was right.

"...you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue": there is a very obvious gap between this kind of thing on one side and being fully healthy/able on the other side. The system implicitely assumes that there does not exist any gap between these two sides. My existence is sufficient as a counter-proof: for the life of me I CANNOT work full-time even though I CAN repeatedly/safely/reliably do all the things mentioned in the PIP.

And again, I assume there are dozens or hundreds of thousands of people across the UK in the same situation. Why is it so hard to admit the system flawed in this regard?

@Muttleythefrog thanks but with just a few hours per day of work you can't possibly live in the UK.

Did you appeal all the way to tribunal, or just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration?  MRs are notoriously useless, they usually don't actually consider the decision, just stick with the initial one.

Also not sure why you're equating PIP and working, PIP is based on daily living not ability to work.  Loads of people claim PIP and work, even full-time.  (Although not so many of us who are disabled due to illness, to be fair.)

I do readily acknowledge that there are people who are ill and disabled who do fall through the gaps because the thresholds for PIP and ESA/UC LCWRA are high.  But there are also LOTS of people who are wrongly denied and thus believe they don't qualify - understandably, because in a decent society we should be able to trust the government department administering benefits for people who are potentially vulnerable and disadvantaged - when in reality they do qualify, when properly assessed according to the law. 
This is the reason we strongly advise people to thoroughly look into it and understand how it is supposed to be assessed, so that they will know whether the decision they get is probably correct or needs to be challenged.

I don't think it's constructive for me to engage any further here.

Right but since I got 0 everywhere do you think I stand a chance if I appeal to a tribunal? If I had weak scores I don't know having 0 across the board...

About food, that's a small part of my monthly expenses. Even if I reduce food budget by 50%, my overall situation won't change much.

@Spoonie_Turtle: just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration. No problem, I do thank you for your useful input in this conversation anyway.

I know I said I wouldn't engage further but since that's just a simple, direct question:

Yes it could very well be worth appealing.  It is not unusual for someone to go from 0 across the board to enhanced award for both, at tribunal.

If after reading up on it you're still not sure either way, if you're able to seek help from an adviser e.g. from the CAB they can usually tell you whether it's worth appealing or not

Danien

I've represented many people who went into Tribunal with zero points and came out with a full award. Get yourself an benefits adviser who can help you put together your case or tell you if they don't believe you have a chance.

ColonelCabbage

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

What PIP questionnaire?  Did you actually apply, and if so did you challenge the outcome?  It's not uncommon to go from 0 points at the first decision to challenging it and getting 12+ on both sections for the highest possible PIP award.

All the advice above remains true.  It's up to you whether you choose to read the source given for PIP to see that we're telling the truth about how it's actually assessed according to the law.  It's trickier to point to sources for the WCA because the government handbook is not public-friendly, but the principles of being able to do things safely and repeatedly still apply to the activities and how they're assessed. 
And depending on your mobility you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue and/or shortness of breath.  Plus if doing do would make you deteriorate (depending on the condition) then that still counts as not being able to do it.  And that's just the first descriptor.

Some useful WCA info here
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/know-hows/employment-and-support-allowance-esa-activities-and-descriptors-and-substantial-risk

We can't make you read or consider it but you may as well, to make sure that your struggle is definitely necessary under the current benefits system and that you're not missing out on anything you could qualify for.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes I applied, got zero everywhere, made appeal, then received a letter confirming/insisting the decision was right.

"...you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue": there is a very obvious gap between this kind of thing on one side and being fully healthy/able on the other side. The system implicitely assumes that there does not exist any gap between these two sides. My existence is sufficient as a counter-proof: for the life of me I CANNOT work full-time even though I CAN repeatedly/safely/reliably do all the things mentioned in the PIP.

And again, I assume there are dozens or hundreds of thousands of people across the UK in the same situation. Why is it so hard to admit the system flawed in this regard?

@Muttleythefrog thanks but with just a few hours per day of work you can't possibly live in the UK.

Did you appeal all the way to tribunal, or just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration?  MRs are notoriously useless, they usually don't actually consider the decision, just stick with the initial one.

Also not sure why you're equating PIP and working, PIP is based on daily living not ability to work.  Loads of people claim PIP and work, even full-time.  (Although not so many of us who are disabled due to illness, to be fair.)

I do readily acknowledge that there are people who are ill and disabled who do fall through the gaps because the thresholds for PIP and ESA/UC LCWRA are high.  But there are also LOTS of people who are wrongly denied and thus believe they don't qualify - understandably, because in a decent society we should be able to trust the government department administering benefits for people who are potentially vulnerable and disadvantaged - when in reality they do qualify, when properly assessed according to the law. 
This is the reason we strongly advise people to thoroughly look into it and understand how it is supposed to be assessed, so that they will know whether the decision they get is probably correct or needs to be challenged.

I don't think it's constructive for me to engage any further here.

Right but since I got 0 everywhere do you think I stand a chance if I appeal to a tribunal? If I had weak scores I don't know having 0 across the board...

About food, that's a small part of my monthly expenses. Even if I reduce food budget by 50%, my overall situation won't change much.

@Spoonie_Turtle: just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration. No problem, I do thank you for your useful input in this conversation anyway.

I know I said I wouldn't engage further but since that's just a simple, direct question:

Yes it could very well be worth appealing.  It is not unusual for someone to go from 0 across the board to enhanced award for both, at tribunal.

If after reading up on it you're still not sure either way, if you're able to seek help from an adviser e.g. from the CAB they can usually tell you whether it's worth appealing or not

Thank you very much. I know what my next move is: CAB!

As a side note, the fact that you can get 0 everywhere (even after mandatory reconsideration) before being found later on to deserve maximum help, tells me that the system is genuinely biased against helping people. The intent seems to be to help people as least as possible. While extracting from those same people as much tax as possible. I find it completely outrageous but maybe that's just me.

@Danien thank you. You mean a benefit adviser from CAB right?

gilbutre

I realise I missed the 1-month deadline to appeal. Do I have to make a new claim? Can I?

Muttleythefrog

gilbutre said:

I realise I missed the 1-month deadline to appeal. Do I have to make a new claim? Can I?

I would start a new thread as it could easily get confusing here if we start asking you questions to give you answers on someone's else's ongoing cases. Bear in mind the original enquiry by the member is not the current enquiry in the thread and relates to a different benefit so it could easily all get confusing if then we introduce another member's issues.

Alice_Holt

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

What PIP questionnaire?  Did you actually apply, and if so did you challenge the outcome?  It's not uncommon to go from 0 points at the first decision to challenging it and getting 12+ on both sections for the highest possible PIP award.

All the advice above remains true.  It's up to you whether you choose to read the source given for PIP to see that we're telling the truth about how it's actually assessed according to the law.  It's trickier to point to sources for the WCA because the government handbook is not public-friendly, but the principles of being able to do things safely and repeatedly still apply to the activities and how they're assessed. 
And depending on your mobility you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue and/or shortness of breath.  Plus if doing do would make you deteriorate (depending on the condition) then that still counts as not being able to do it.  And that's just the first descriptor.

Some useful WCA info here
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/know-hows/employment-and-support-allowance-esa-activities-and-descriptors-and-substantial-risk

We can't make you read or consider it but you may as well, to make sure that your struggle is definitely necessary under the current benefits system and that you're not missing out on anything you could qualify for.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes I applied, got zero everywhere, made appeal, then received a letter confirming/insisting the decision was right.

"...you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue": there is a very obvious gap between this kind of thing on one side and being fully healthy/able on the other side. The system implicitely assumes that there does not exist any gap between these two sides. My existence is sufficient as a counter-proof: for the life of me I CANNOT work full-time even though I CAN repeatedly/safely/reliably do all the things mentioned in the PIP.

And again, I assume there are dozens or hundreds of thousands of people across the UK in the same situation. Why is it so hard to admit the system flawed in this regard?

@Muttleythefrog thanks but with just a few hours per day of work you can't possibly live in the UK.

Did you appeal all the way to tribunal, or just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration?  MRs are notoriously useless, they usually don't actually consider the decision, just stick with the initial one.

Also not sure why you're equating PIP and working, PIP is based on daily living not ability to work.  Loads of people claim PIP and work, even full-time.  (Although not so many of us who are disabled due to illness, to be fair.)

I do readily acknowledge that there are people who are ill and disabled who do fall through the gaps because the thresholds for PIP and ESA/UC LCWRA are high.  But there are also LOTS of people who are wrongly denied and thus believe they don't qualify - understandably, because in a decent society we should be able to trust the government department administering benefits for people who are potentially vulnerable and disadvantaged - when in reality they do qualify, when properly assessed according to the law. 
This is the reason we strongly advise people to thoroughly look into it and understand how it is supposed to be assessed, so that they will know whether the decision they get is probably correct or needs to be challenged.

I don't think it's constructive for me to engage any further here.

Right but since I got 0 everywhere do you think I stand a chance if I appeal to a tribunal? If I had weak scores I don't know having 0 across the board...


@Spoonie_Turtle: just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration. No problem, I do thank you for your useful input in this conversation anyway.

   Rather a late comment, but just to underline some of the points made by other sensible forumites.
   

   At my local Cit A it is not uncommon for clients with zero points to be awarded an enhanced award at their PIP tribunal (with our help), so badly flawed are some of the assessments and MR's.

    Nationally c.70% of PIP appeals succeed.  At my local Cit A our success rate for clients is well over 90%.
Key to a successful outcome are the PIP concepts of 'reliability' and 'majority of days' - concepts often misapplied at assessment.  Spoonie has eloquently and clearly explained 'reliability'. 

   It is perfectly possible to be awarded PIP due to chronic fatigue. 
 It helps to write the PIP form with a clear understanding of the PIP descriptors, points system, and reliability. To fully explain why and how your experience difficulties with the PIP activities.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form-pip/

It also helps greatly with the appeal if you have been consistent with the form, the assessment, the MR, the appeal submission, and your verbal evidence to the tribunal panel.


You don't appear to have this understanding if you really think that to get a PIP award, you have to be unable to feed yourself, etc.

So, I'd suggest starting afresh with a new claim, but get help to write the from your local advice agency   
 

gilbutre

Alice_Holt said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

ColonelCabbage said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

What PIP questionnaire?  Did you actually apply, and if so did you challenge the outcome?  It's not uncommon to go from 0 points at the first decision to challenging it and getting 12+ on both sections for the highest possible PIP award.

All the advice above remains true.  It's up to you whether you choose to read the source given for PIP to see that we're telling the truth about how it's actually assessed according to the law.  It's trickier to point to sources for the WCA because the government handbook is not public-friendly, but the principles of being able to do things safely and repeatedly still apply to the activities and how they're assessed. 
And depending on your mobility you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue and/or shortness of breath.  Plus if doing do would make you deteriorate (depending on the condition) then that still counts as not being able to do it.  And that's just the first descriptor.

Some useful WCA info here
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/know-hows/employment-and-support-allowance-esa-activities-and-descriptors-and-substantial-risk

We can't make you read or consider it but you may as well, to make sure that your struggle is definitely necessary under the current benefits system and that you're not missing out on anything you could qualify for.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes I applied, got zero everywhere, made appeal, then received a letter confirming/insisting the decision was right.

"...you might well possibly qualify for LCWRA for not being able to repeatedly/safely/reliably walk or self-propel for 50m or more due to fatigue": there is a very obvious gap between this kind of thing on one side and being fully healthy/able on the other side. The system implicitely assumes that there does not exist any gap between these two sides. My existence is sufficient as a counter-proof: for the life of me I CANNOT work full-time even though I CAN repeatedly/safely/reliably do all the things mentioned in the PIP.

And again, I assume there are dozens or hundreds of thousands of people across the UK in the same situation. Why is it so hard to admit the system flawed in this regard?

@Muttleythefrog thanks but with just a few hours per day of work you can't possibly live in the UK.

Did you appeal all the way to tribunal, or just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration?  MRs are notoriously useless, they usually don't actually consider the decision, just stick with the initial one.

Also not sure why you're equating PIP and working, PIP is based on daily living not ability to work.  Loads of people claim PIP and work, even full-time.  (Although not so many of us who are disabled due to illness, to be fair.)

I do readily acknowledge that there are people who are ill and disabled who do fall through the gaps because the thresholds for PIP and ESA/UC LCWRA are high.  But there are also LOTS of people who are wrongly denied and thus believe they don't qualify - understandably, because in a decent society we should be able to trust the government department administering benefits for people who are potentially vulnerable and disadvantaged - when in reality they do qualify, when properly assessed according to the law. 
This is the reason we strongly advise people to thoroughly look into it and understand how it is supposed to be assessed, so that they will know whether the decision they get is probably correct or needs to be challenged.

I don't think it's constructive for me to engage any further here.

Right but since I got 0 everywhere do you think I stand a chance if I appeal to a tribunal? If I had weak scores I don't know having 0 across the board...


@Spoonie_Turtle: just the initial Mandatory Reconsideration. No problem, I do thank you for your useful input in this conversation anyway.

   Rather a late comment, but just to underline some of the points made by other sensible forumites.
   

   At my local Cit A it is not uncommon for clients with zero points to be awarded an enhanced award at their PIP tribunal (with our help), so badly flawed are some of the assessments and MR's.

    Nationally c.70% of PIP appeals succeed.  At my local Cit A our success rate for clients is well over 90%.
Key to a successful outcome are the PIP concepts of 'reliability' and 'majority of days' - concepts often misapplied at assessment.  Spoonie has eloquently and clearly explained 'reliability'. 

   It is perfectly possible to be awarded PIP due to chronic fatigue. 
 It helps to write the PIP form with a clear understanding of the PIP descriptors, points system, and reliability. To fully explain why and how your experience difficulties with the PIP activities.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form-pip/

It also helps greatly with the appeal if you have been consistent with the form, the assessment, the MR, the appeal submission, and your verbal evidence to the tribunal panel.


You don't appear to have this understanding if you really think that to get a PIP award, you have to be unable to feed yourself, etc.

So, I'd suggest starting afresh with a new claim, but get help to write the from your local advice agency   
 

Thanks a lot, sounds like best advice which I'll follow.