Storage heaters & Economy 7 concerns - advice needed

Scot_39

DragonRider83 said:

Scot_39 said:

Re costs theirs an excellent comparison done by a user @QrizB linked from his posts footer.

Gas vs E7 vs peak elec heating costs

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

You might want to read back on some history, but it's a good start point.

Most people would say your plan is only likely to increase bills - we see regular posts from those regretting replacing NSH E7 combinations - with standard panels on SR and staying on an E7 like tariff with higher peak rate only amplifies the day cost problem.

Like others if the old Credas a problem - their more modern tsre or sister company dimpley quantum hhr (or their equivalents from other brands) might be needed.

And I'd love to know where the idea that E7 is disappearing anytime soon comes from. Like a few definitive references from Ofgem or suppliers. Its likely confusion with RTS off peak tariff metering.

Thanks, but I wasn't suggesting we would replace the storage heaters with electric ones and remain on an E7 tariff. What we were considering was replacing the storage heaters and coming OFF the E7 tariff to a normal one, so there would be no peak/off peak times. I agree that  having electric heating and an E7 style tariff would be a terrible idea!

Dont forget HW - which if shower tank fed - can be significant in my case about 1000kWh for lite use from tank and losses and upto 500kWh for showering per person per annum - sadly for me direct het from cold fed  - but which in a flat is perhaps more likely to be from mains pressurised hw tank so at E7 off peak rates.

In summer that's as much as 75% of my daily use.  


And a decent chunk as a light heat user - over a third of my annual total.

Jumping from 12p E7 to 24p for SVT on that year round is non trivial.

Scot_39

DragonRider83 said:

Thanks for all the replies so far. There's come conflicting advice, but also some that makes sense. Our main priorities are to keep bills low, complicated equipment minimal, and control high.

In case we did decide to get rid of the storage heaters and just go onto a normal tariff, can anyone give me a rough idea of what an average electricity bill would be for a single, older person in a modern (built 1999), well-insulated, mid-floor, one-bedroom flat, on the basis that it's only using electricity? If it helps, this is in Berkshire. It would just help us decide whether this would be a financially viable option. I've searched online, but the only averages I can find are on the basis that someone is using both gas and electricity, rather than solely electricity.

Ofgem do actually produce TDCVs for all electric homes - or more accurately profile class 2 (multirate) meters to be precise.

See letter 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/TDCV 2023 Decision Letter.pdf

The median level is now 3,900kWh per annum.
The median duel fuel is 2,700 kWh electric, 11,500kWh gas - 14,200kWh total, over 10,000kWh more.

The lowest Elec PC2 quartile is just 2200kWh. 

Why the huge disparity - firstly - they are not based on the same distribution of house sizes or occupancy levels.

But even Ofgem itself, and more widely,  figures regarded as an underestimate for those reliant on conventional electric (not heat pump) heating inc nsh.  For instance they acknowldege could be missing some dual meter properties and may include those using secondary heating like coal, oil or log burners.

Most people would struggle to stay within it if running even a smaller property at high temps, as an elderly person might do.

I do, but only by small margin most years - but not coldest years - now single occupancy - but not in past.  And I layer up to only heat LR in 2 bed DG mid terrace to 17C, elsewhere 15C too cold for many elderly.

My next door neighbours use over 8000kWh in similar 2 bed mid terrace according to CTM link

Have you tried looking for her flat number or others in block for past use if direct supply not communal heating.

E.g. via https://energy.comparethemarket.com/

BarelySentientAI

Scot_39 said:

DragonRider83 said:

Thanks for all the replies so far. There's come conflicting advice, but also some that makes sense. Our main priorities are to keep bills low, complicated equipment minimal, and control high.

In case we did decide to get rid of the storage heaters and just go onto a normal tariff, can anyone give me a rough idea of what an average electricity bill would be for a single, older person in a modern (built 1999), well-insulated, mid-floor, one-bedroom flat, on the basis that it's only using electricity? If it helps, this is in Berkshire. It would just help us decide whether this would be a financially viable option. I've searched online, but the only averages I can find are on the basis that someone is using both gas and electricity, rather than solely electricity.

Ofgem do actually produce TDCVs for all electric homes - or more accurately profile class 2 (multirate) meters to be precise.

They also tried a much more complicated method:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/05/ofgem_energy_consumer_archetypes_-_final_report_0.pdf

Scot_39

BarelySentientAI said:

Scot_39 said:

DragonRider83 said:

Thanks for all the replies so far. There's come conflicting advice, but also some that makes sense. Our main priorities are to keep bills low, complicated equipment minimal, and control high.

In case we did decide to get rid of the storage heaters and just go onto a normal tariff, can anyone give me a rough idea of what an average electricity bill would be for a single, older person in a modern (built 1999), well-insulated, mid-floor, one-bedroom flat, on the basis that it's only using electricity? If it helps, this is in Berkshire. It would just help us decide whether this would be a financially viable option. I've searched online, but the only averages I can find are on the basis that someone is using both gas and electricity, rather than solely electricity.

Ofgem do actually produce TDCVs for all electric homes - or more accurately profile class 2 (multirate) meters to be precise.

They also tried a much more complicated method:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/05/ofgem_energy_consumer_archetypes_-_final_report_0.pdf

Thanks - that's going to need a bit of reading.

Even just for the 3 electric dominated off gas grid cases.

inthedepthsofthesea

@DragonRider83 have you checked the off-peak times? In a previous flat we had 6 hours overnight and 1 hour just before the evening peak, so we could boost the storage heaters or hot water immersion heater. I believe that's uncommon these days (I'm sure others here will know), but it's not impossible that your Mum's has the same.

We now have 0030-0730 and manage just fine, although we do have Dimplex Quantum "smart" storage heaters in the main room and hall which help to keep the bills down.

duckegg65

Here's my experience over the past couple of years that may be of help.  
I moved into an over 60s development mid floor 1 bed flat with very good insulation....these more modern type of developments are constructed to keep the heat in and are usually known for being really warm all year round.  I did not have any heating on from early April to early December.  When the sun came through the windows that was more than enough to heat the flat.
Fast forward to early Spring 2023 I moved into a ground floor flat in a different development that was all electric.
The storage heaters were very old and malfunctioning.  It also had an immersion heater that stopped working the week I moved in.
The landlord paid for a new instant hot water heater(Hyco Speedflow 15L)  There is about 15L of hot water available via the kitchen sink and bathroom sink.  I have an electric shower so no need for a lot of stored hot water.  These heaters are about £120 to buy and the installation cost £370.  
I have found this type of hot water heater in a 1 person flat is more than adequate and not expensive to run at all.

I had a conversation with my Landlord about the old Storage Heaters and replacing them with Electric Radiators.
I already knew someone who had these type of electric radiators in a very well insulated 3 bed house and that they were a lot more economical to run than Storage Heaters mainly due to not needing to heat the rooms that you are not using.

Early summer 2023 The Landlord agreed to let me source some secondhand electric radiators which too me a good few weeks only because I was looking for a specific type(Elnur Gabarron the same as what was already installed in the bedroom)  
I picked up 2 of these off FB Marketplace - 1500W for the living room/kitchen area and a 1000w for the inner hallway/bathroom area.  I paid £150 for the 2 radiators).

I found them very easy to programme (online manual available).  Or they can be turned on and off but that is probably a less efficient way of operating them.

I ran the old storage heaters for about 6weeks through March 2023 until mid April 2023.  They used a LOT of Kw per night!  I then turned them off and had a couple of small oil filled radiators if it got chilly(these flats don't get as much sun as the over 60s and although insulated do cool down pretty quick.

So this past winter 2023/2024 my electric bill was down by 30%.  I set the Living Room radiator to 21C during the day and 18C at night.  The bedroom radiator was set at 18C all the time.  The inner hallway/bathroom area was set at 20C

The size of the flat was 42 square meters and I was always comfortable and warm.

Anyway I hope this information is of help.

Phones4Chris

DragonRider83 said:

Scot_39 said:

Re costs theirs an excellent comparison done by a user @QrizB linked from his posts footer.

Gas vs E7 vs peak elec heating costs

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

You might want to read back on some history, but it's a good start point.

Most people would say your plan is only likely to increase bills - we see regular posts from those regretting replacing NSH E7 combinations - with standard panels on SR and staying on an E7 like tariff with higher peak rate only amplifies the day cost problem.

Like others if the old Credas a problem - their more modern tsre or sister company dimpley quantum hhr (or their equivalents from other brands) might be needed.

And I'd love to know where the idea that E7 is disappearing anytime soon comes from. Like a few definitive references from Ofgem or suppliers. Its likely confusion with RTS off peak tariff metering.

Thanks, but I wasn't suggesting we would replace the storage heaters with electric ones and remain on an E7 tariff. What we were considering was replacing the storage heaters and coming OFF the E7 tariff to a normal one, so there would be no peak/off peak times. I agree that  having electric heating and an E7 style tariff would be a terrible idea!

Having conventional heaters on an E7 tariff is highly unlikely to be cheap!

DragonRider83 said:

Thanks for all the replies so far. There's come conflicting advice, but also some that makes sense. Our main priorities are to keep bills low, complicated equipment minimal, and control high.
..............

There isn't really any conflicting advice, there's a factually incorrect statement about E7, it's not coming to an end, E7 will continue as long as suppliers offer it along with other TOU tariffs.

IF heating and hot water are the greatest users of energy in a home and they are designed to run off-peak, then changing to standard heaters etc and a standard tariff will work out more expensive!
It doesn't matter how big or small, or how well insulated the home is, it will take X kWh of energy to keep it to the warmth that you desire, that energy is clearly cheaper off-peak than it is on a standard tariff.

The problem with older storage heaters is whether you can control them sufficiently for your needs later in the evening, but the ones you mention are not that old but clearly not high heat retention ones.
You should also check that the hot water isn't set up to automatically heat at peak rates in the day as well as off-peak.

As has been mentioned, wait and see how it works out before making any rash decisions to change anything.