10k UC overpayment

peteuk

Danien said:

I think the discussion here shows that the OP needs to get specialist advice and not just the raise adviser, as withdrawing the appeal and accepting the overpayment is not the correct action here. A different welfare rights organisation with experience of complex issues would be a good choice. That further specialist advice is being sought should be mentioned when trying to delay the appeal. And definitely do not go with a paper appeal on this one.

Has the OP actually applied for the housing element on rhe current address from rhe date they moved in? It may be there is two actions that need to be made at the same time:

Firstly - Challenge the overpayment to delay payments being taken from UC. This will not ultimately be successful as there is no doubt an overpayment of the housing element for this period of time following the change of address. A specialist adviser needs to check it has been properly calculated, and delay collection as long as possible. Abd if collection is going to start negotiate payments as low as possible.

Secondly - Claim the housing element from the date of moving into the current address (if not already done) and get a decision from the move in date. Then if this is refused then that decision can be challenged and ultimately appealled. If this appeal is successful, then the payment can be offset against the original overpayment.

This is how I would have handled it. 

It’s obvious if you read the first post that housing benefit was an element of the OP UC claim, and that they didn’t claim HB for the new property until recently.  So technically there has been a claim on a house that they didn’t live in.

However if you think about this there are some basic flaws in the post,  was claiming UC before they left so should have changed from a joint to single UC claim (in theory), has gone X years without an ID check, etc etc so this should have flagged the wrong address. 

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

Danien said:

I think the discussion here shows that the OP needs to get specialist advice and not just the raise adviser, as withdrawing the appeal and accepting the overpayment is not the correct action here. A different welfare rights organisation with experience of complex issues would be a good choice. That further specialist advice is being sought should be mentioned when trying to delay the appeal. And definitely do not go with a paper appeal on this one.

Has the OP actually applied for the housing element on rhe current address from rhe date they moved in? It may be there is two actions that need to be made at the same time:

Firstly - Challenge the overpayment to delay payments being taken from UC. This will not ultimately be successful as there is no doubt an overpayment of the housing element for this period of time following the change of address. A specialist adviser needs to check it has been properly calculated, and delay collection as long as possible. Abd if collection is going to start negotiate payments as low as possible.

Secondly - Claim the housing element from the date of moving into the current address (if not already done) and get a decision from the move in date. Then if this is refused then that decision can be challenged and ultimately appealled. If this appeal is successful, then the payment can be offset against the original overpayment.

This is how I would have handled it. 

It’s obvious if you read the first post that housing benefit was an element of the OP UC claim, and that they didn’t claim HB for the new property until recently.  So technically there has been a claim on a house that they didn’t live in.

However if you think about this there are some basic flaws in the post,  was claiming UC before they left so should have changed from a joint to single UC claim (in theory), has gone X years without an ID check, etc etc so this should have flagged the wrong address. 

Not sure that's correct.  Very first line of the OP's initial post:
"I was relatively new to UC and was private renting after fleeing domestic abuse. I moved to another place with help of council and LHA remained the same" - nothing to say they were claiming UC before fleeing, and it seems from later posts that properties A and B were both 'up North' after B&Bs and hotels as that's the only way the LHA could have stayed the same.  (Property A having been correctly reported and verified for the housing element.)

peteuk

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

Danien said:

I think the discussion here shows that the OP needs to get specialist advice and not just the raise adviser, as withdrawing the appeal and accepting the overpayment is not the correct action here. A different welfare rights organisation with experience of complex issues would be a good choice. That further specialist advice is being sought should be mentioned when trying to delay the appeal. And definitely do not go with a paper appeal on this one.

Has the OP actually applied for the housing element on rhe current address from rhe date they moved in? It may be there is two actions that need to be made at the same time:

Firstly - Challenge the overpayment to delay payments being taken from UC. This will not ultimately be successful as there is no doubt an overpayment of the housing element for this period of time following the change of address. A specialist adviser needs to check it has been properly calculated, and delay collection as long as possible. Abd if collection is going to start negotiate payments as low as possible.

Secondly - Claim the housing element from the date of moving into the current address (if not already done) and get a decision from the move in date. Then if this is refused then that decision can be challenged and ultimately appealled. If this appeal is successful, then the payment can be offset against the original overpayment.

This is how I would have handled it. 

It’s obvious if you read the first post that housing benefit was an element of the OP UC claim, and that they didn’t claim HB for the new property until recently.  So technically there has been a claim on a house that they didn’t live in.

However if you think about this there are some basic flaws in the post,  was claiming UC before they left so should have changed from a joint to single UC claim (in theory), has gone X years without an ID check, etc etc so this should have flagged the wrong address. 

Not sure that's correct.  Very first line of the OP's initial post:
"I was relatively new to UC and was private renting after fleeing domestic abuse. I moved to another place with help of council and LHA remained the same" - nothing to say they were claiming UC before fleeing, and it seems from later posts that properties A and B were both 'up North' after B&Bs and hotels as that's the only way the LHA could have stayed the same.  (Property A having been correctly reported and verified for the housing element.)

Was obviously claiming HB or rather a Housing element of UC for it to have been an UC overpayment,  if new to the UC payment and it was set up when the OP moved then it would naturally have the correct address on it. 

No where has the OP suggested they have claimed HB/housing element for the new address, hence the info I changed all the addresses except with UC (which also implies the OP was claiming UC before the move).  It is now that the OP has changed the address that the overpayment has come to light.  

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

Danien said:

I think the discussion here shows that the OP needs to get specialist advice and not just the raise adviser, as withdrawing the appeal and accepting the overpayment is not the correct action here. A different welfare rights organisation with experience of complex issues would be a good choice. That further specialist advice is being sought should be mentioned when trying to delay the appeal. And definitely do not go with a paper appeal on this one.

Has the OP actually applied for the housing element on rhe current address from rhe date they moved in? It may be there is two actions that need to be made at the same time:

Firstly - Challenge the overpayment to delay payments being taken from UC. This will not ultimately be successful as there is no doubt an overpayment of the housing element for this period of time following the change of address. A specialist adviser needs to check it has been properly calculated, and delay collection as long as possible. Abd if collection is going to start negotiate payments as low as possible.

Secondly - Claim the housing element from the date of moving into the current address (if not already done) and get a decision from the move in date. Then if this is refused then that decision can be challenged and ultimately appealled. If this appeal is successful, then the payment can be offset against the original overpayment.

This is how I would have handled it. 

It’s obvious if you read the first post that housing benefit was an element of the OP UC claim, and that they didn’t claim HB for the new property until recently.  So technically there has been a claim on a house that they didn’t live in.

However if you think about this there are some basic flaws in the post,  was claiming UC before they left so should have changed from a joint to single UC claim (in theory), has gone X years without an ID check, etc etc so this should have flagged the wrong address. 

Not sure that's correct.  Very first line of the OP's initial post:
"I was relatively new to UC and was private renting after fleeing domestic abuse. I moved to another place with help of council and LHA remained the same" - nothing to say they were claiming UC before fleeing, and it seems from later posts that properties A and B were both 'up North' after B&Bs and hotels as that's the only way the LHA could have stayed the same.  (Property A having been correctly reported and verified for the housing element.)

Was obviously claiming HB or rather a Housing element of UC for it to have been an UC overpayment,  if new to the UC payment and it was set up when the OP moved then it would naturally have the correct address on it. 

No where has the OP suggested they have claimed HB/housing element for the new address, hence the info I changed all the addresses except with UC (which also implies the OP was claiming UC before the move).  It is now that the OP has changed the address that the overpayment has come to light.  

No, as I understand it they moved up North, claimed the housing element for property A, moved later to property B within the same LA, and assumed because the council knew and helped them move that UC would be notified (which they said in some posts, I'm not projecting any assumptions about that bit). 

They have claimed it for the current property, at the end of page 1 and into page 2 of the thread.

UC have said because the housing element was for property A it's an overpayment, ignoring the fact that they are entitled to the same amount for property B - and the legal position about that is under debate amongst members far more knowledgeable and experienced than I.

mybestattempt

The basic issue here seems straightforward:

"Was the OP entitled to the housing element from the date she moved to property B until the date she notified DWP of that move; and if not, is there an overpayment of UC?"

If the OP wants to continue the appeal she can ask for an in person hearing so the facts can be established by the judge.

The date of the move and the date DWP was notified will be identified.

The OP will explain why she didn't inform DWP of the move from A to B at the time.

The DWP representative will say why DWP take the position there was no entitlement after the move to B until the date of the move was notified to DWP based on the legislation.

The judge will apply the relevant legislation and case law to decide whether or not the OP was entitled to the housing element from the date she moved to B until the date DWP was notified of the move and if there is an overpayment of UC.

sheramber

UC state that housing element is only due for a verified property.

Property B was not verified until the OP updated the address and housing element only payable from the date it was verified. 

HillStreetBlues

sheramber said:

UC state that housing element is only due for a verified property.

Property B was not verified until the OP updated the address and housing element only payable from the date it was verified. 

Can you link to the statute that states that..

mybestattempt

HillStreetBlues said:

sheramber said:

UC state that housing element is only due for a verified property.

Property B was not verified until the OP updated the address and housing element only payable from the date it was verified. 

Can you link to the statute that states that..

Since I last posted I've been trawling through the DWP decision makers guides and related legislation and this is the relevant legislation:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/384/regulation/9

Danien

mybestattempt said:

HillStreetBlues said:

sheramber said:

UC state that housing element is only due for a verified property.

Property B was not verified until the OP updated the address and housing element only payable from the date it was verified. 

Can you link to the statute that states that..

Since I last posted I've been trawling through the DWP decision makers guides and related legislation and this is the relevant legislation:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/384/regulation/9

Yes, I agree. But at the moment the OP has only appealed the overpayment. Surely they need to also get a decision regarding even notional entitlement to housing element for property B from date of move in.

Currently I have not seen the OP state that they have a decision stating 'you are not entitled to housing element from date of move in to property B', only from date they notified the change - has the OP requested housing element for property B from date of move in, so that the decision maker can offset overpayment against assumed entitlement during that period? The decision maker will not always look at this sirt of thing off their own back, sometimes they need prompting.

A decision on this needs to be established prior to appeal so the offset can be requested at appeal. Even better if prodded there is a possibility that it can be sorted prior to an appeal hearing.

Medusa80, do you have a decision regarding your entitlement to housing element at your current property from the date you moved in? Even if they said you weren't entitled only because you didn't notify them of the change at the right time?

If you don't have this, you need to ask them to look at your entitlement from the date you moved into your current property until the day before your current housing element started. Also at the same time, ask them if they find you would have been entitled if you notified them at the tine of move, can they use their discretion and offset your overpayment against what you should have been awarded. It may mean you don't need to go to appeal at best, or at worst it gives clear path for the appeal judge to use their own discretion.

mybestattempt

I understand the OP has already asked for off setting and DWP refused.

The judge has no discretion in this matter. The legislation is clear that only DWP can exercise discretion to off set.