What next?

ProbateNewbie

She's not necessarily entitled to inherit - depends what his Will says, although I believe if she was financially dependent on him she may have a legitimate claim on the estate if no provision has been made for her.

ProbateNewbie

@kelloggs36 is the Wife a beneficiary? 

Sea_Shell

ProbateNewbie said:

@kelloggs36 is the Wife a beneficiary? 

OP stated the wife has been granted the right to remain in the house, and a lump sum bequest.  But not the whole estate.

ProbateNewbie

@Sea_Shell ah yes, so it does, thanks. I guess then the lump sum & the right to remain in the house is her husband providing for her.

Hopefully common sense will prevail & she'll sign the docs.

Sea_Shell

ProbateNewbie said:

@Sea_Shell ah yes, so it does, thanks. I guess then the lump sum & the right to remain in the house is her husband providing for her.

Hopefully common sense will prevail & she'll sign the docs.

Unless it's more a crumb than a lump. 🤔

ProbateNewbie

Sea_Shell said:

ProbateNewbie said:

@Sea_Shell ah yes, so it does, thanks. I guess then the lump sum & the right to remain in the house is her husband providing for her.

Hopefully common sense will prevail & she'll sign the docs.

Unless it's more a crumb than a lump. 🤔

Hmmm, I wonder what's considered an acceptable amount? I suppose it depends on whether the deceased usually paid for everything or only paid part of the bills, etc.

I suppose the SM would need enough to be able to pay the bills at the house whilst living there.

kelloggs36

Clearly I have not made things clear so I will try again.
FIL had all his children and his wife made joint poa for both finances and health.  He then developed dementia and went into a care home in early 2020.
As it is the law to make sure that funds are spent in the interests of the donor (FIL) and with his wishes in mind, the siblings wanted to ensure that they knew what funds he had and therefore got access to his bank details.  From there it was clear that AFTER he went into the care home, the MIL spent 5k of HIS money to pay off HER personal credit card.  She also went on holiday and used money from HIS account.  The siblings approached her and asked what the money was spent on etc and she refused to speak to them.  She then demanded 20k per year for maintenance of the house she was living in to cover bills and council tax.  The house is not a mansion, it is a modest 4 bedroomed home with no mortgage.  The siblings asked for evidence of the upkeep of the house so that they could try to all (including her) reach an agreement of what funds the FIL should be paying.  She point blank refused to provide any information at all so they had no idea of the running costs.  She was continuing to pay full council tax despite being told that her husband had no liability and that she qualified for a 25% discount.  She continued to spend his money to pay it.  She claimed that it cost over 1k per year to have the windows cleaned but would not provide any bills or receipts.  It got so bad with her refusing to provide any information - she failed to disclose the AVIVA account (which it turns out was an investment fund and not a pension as suggested) and cashed it in with no mention of how much or the fact that she had even done this.  The money was supposed to be able to all be accounted for as per the rules of the POA.  The siblings were finding it extremely frustrating that they were trying to take care of the funds with only half the information.  They then made a formal complaint and the case went to court where she was directed to provide full accounts - which she sort of did, but at that time they didn't know about the AVIVA account.  She tried to claim the toiletries with the judge but refused to provide any evidence of expenditure and has refused to provide half the info she was directed to do.  Eventually, an agreement was made of a monthly sum that she could claim towards the running of the house.  
He then died in October.  The Will leaves her a large lump sum of 50k and there is another sum to go to his sister and the residue to the siblings.  She also has the right to remain in the house for her lifetime.
As joint executor, one of the siblings has tried to ensure that he can get the accurate value of his dad's estate but she has not been honest and has not paid into the executor account the HMRC refund nor the DWP refund and to date the other executor has no idea how much this is.  This should be included as part of his father's estate.  He has asked for information and been met with nothing at all.  She then said that she had spent 1k of this money on a shower repair - but again has not provided any evidence.  She has refused to complete the probate forms and is holding up the whole thing.  The siblings have been extremely patient but she has refused to engage and just keeps asking for more and more money from when they held the POA - which is no longer in force - and which the judge already rejected.  All the siblings want to do is to get the information as to exactly what money their father had but she won't tell them everything - if they had the information, they could then establish what she was entitled to and what would be part of his estate.  As joint POA they all had the legal right to this info, but she refused to share it, and now she is withholding info from the other executor.
The siblings have tried to compromise by saying that they won't insist she refund the estate with the money that she spent on herself which was clearly not in the FIL best interests.  Let's make this clear: she has NEVER been financially dependant upon him - she sold her former home and therefore had around 250k plus her private and state pensions.  When asked why she needed so much from the FIL she said that her money was earmarked for her grandchildren's inheritance so he had to support her in full out of his money!
She is not some sweet old lady that the siblings are trying to rip off - they merely want to be in receipt of all the relevant information so that they can proceed and ensure that their father's will has been executed according to his wishes.
I hope that this makes things a bit clearer.

Savvy_Sue

the other executor needs to get paid for legal advice and I anticipate that they will have to apply to remove her as executor, which won't necessarily be cheap, quick or easy. 

The Court of Protection won't take any more action now her husband has died. 

Sea_Shell

kelloggs36 said:

Clearly I have not made things clear so I will try again.

FIL had all his children and his wife made joint poa for both finances and health.  He then developed dementia and went into a care home in early 2020.

As it is the law to make sure that funds are spent in the interests of the donor (FIL) and with his wishes in mind, the siblings wanted to ensure that they knew what funds he had and therefore got access to his bank details.  From there it was clear that AFTER he went into the care home, the MIL spent 5k of HIS money to pay off HER personal credit card. 

She also went on holiday and used money from HIS account.  The siblings approached her and asked what the money was spent on etc and she refused to speak to them.  She then demanded 20k per year for maintenance of the house she was living in to cover bills and council tax.  The house is not a mansion, it is a modest 4 bedroomed home with no mortgage. 

The siblings asked for evidence of the upkeep of the house so that they could try to all (including her) reach an agreement of what funds the FIL should be paying.  She point blank refused to provide any information at all so they had no idea of the running costs.  She was continuing to pay full council tax despite being told that her husband had no liability and that she qualified for a 25% discount.  She continued to spend his money to pay it. 

She claimed that it cost over 1k per year to have the windows cleaned but would not provide any bills or receipts.  It got so bad with her refusing to provide any information - she failed to disclose the AVIVA account (which it turns out was an investment fund and not a pension as suggested) and cashed it in with no mention of how much or the fact that she had even done this.  The money was supposed to be able to all be accounted for as per the rules of the POA. 

The siblings were finding it extremely frustrating that they were trying to take care of the funds with only half the information.  They then made a formal complaint and the case went to court where she was directed to provide full accounts - which she sort of did, but at that time they didn't know about the AVIVA account.  She tried to claim the toiletries with the judge but refused to provide any evidence of expenditure and has refused to provide half the info she was directed to do.  Eventually, an agreement was made of a monthly sum that she could claim towards the running of the house.  

He then died in October.  The Will leaves her a large lump sum of 50k and there is another sum to go to his sister and the residue to the siblings.  She also has the right to remain in the house for her lifetime.

As joint executor, one of the siblings has tried to ensure that he can get the accurate value of his dad's estate but she has not been honest and has not paid into the executor account the HMRC refund nor the DWP refund and to date the other executor has no idea how much this is.  This should be included as part of his father's estate. 

He has asked for information and been met with nothing at all.  She then said that she had spent 1k of this money on a shower repair - but again has not provided any evidence.  She has refused to complete the probate forms and is holding up the whole thing.  The siblings have been extremely patient but she has refused to engage and just keeps asking for more and more money from when they held the POA - which is no longer in force - and which the judge already rejected. 

All the siblings want to do is to get the information as to exactly what money their father had but she won't tell them everything - if they had the information, they could then establish what she was entitled to and what would be part of his estate.  As joint POA they all had the legal right to this info, but she refused to share it, and now she is withholding info from the other executor.

The siblings have tried to compromise by saying that they won't insist she refund the estate with the money that she spent on herself which was clearly not in the FIL best interests.  Let's make this clear: she has NEVER been financially dependant upon him - she sold her former home and therefore had around 250k plus her private and state pensions.  When asked why she needed so much from the FIL she said that her money was earmarked for her grandchildren's inheritance so he had to support her in full out of his money!

She is not some sweet old lady that the siblings are trying to rip off - they merely want to be in receipt of all the relevant information so that they can proceed and ensure that their father's will has been executed according to his wishes.
I hope that this makes things a bit clearer.

Thanks for that explanation.   

The lady in question is the siblings Step-Mother, correct.      I wonder, would they have acted in the way they did if this lady had been their own mother.

It sounds like they (you) don't particularly like her, and so have really taken the "best interests of FIL" to the enth degree when dealing with his affairs as POA.   

Was it "his wishes" that she should be cut off from funds and have to fend for herself?   I'm assuming he didn't actually say anything specific about this on the POA.    Maybe a point to consider for anyone else who finds themselves looking to make POA when your spouse is not their (the attorneys) mother.

As to "What next?..."  

Savvy_Sue said:

the other executor needs to get paid for legal advice and I anticipate that they will have to apply to remove her as executor, which won't necessarily be cheap, quick or easy. 

The Court of Protection won't take any more action now her husband has died. 

What Savvy Sue said. 


It's just all so sad that it's come to this. 

ProbateNewbie

I don't see a problem with what the other executors are asking. They are perfectly entitled to ask what money has been spent and where, imo.