Returning EV after PCP

FoBax

Hi - my car was due for collection at the end of our PCP contract. It’s a 2017 Nissan Leaf, but they refused to collect it as the battery only charges up to 60 miles. 

When we got the car 4 years ago it only had 86 mile range on full charge and I presumed this was standard fall in battery condition. It’s been serviced regularly with main Nissan dealership and had no issues.
The finance company (Mobilize) are saying I need to get the car fixed before I can hand it back. In our opinion the car is in good condition and fully roadworthy. Not sure how to proceed.

tacpot12

You could start by checking your PCP contract. If it doesn't specifically mention EVs or their range, I don't see how they can refuse. If you have home insurnace, check to see if you have Legal Expenses Insurance. If you do, you can call the Legal Helpline provide by your insurer for advice. 

born_again

Range means nothing.
You need to check the battery state of Health.
2 ways, pay dealer. Or use a ODB2 connector & Leaf Spy.

Ignore the click Bait title. They are far from unhappy..

https://youtu.be/8nCcDhGZwwo?si=fxZL6p9UkxHb7iZc

Petriix

The estimated range (otherwise known as the Guess'O'Meter or GOM) is no basis for demanding a repair. On a 7 year old EV with only passive battery cooling, degradation of 25% seems reasonable. 

You might be able to trick it into showing a higher number by resetting the economy data/trip computer, switching into Eco mode and turning the HVAC system off. Otherwise get the actual State of Health using an OBD reader. 

What exactly do they want you to repair?

ididgetwhereiamtoday

Is it the 24 kw or 30 kw model? If it’s the 30 kw model there was a software update that could improve the battery SOH. This should have been done through routine servicing assuming you had it serviced with Nissan? Also with Nissan servicing they give you a printout of battery state of health. 

How many bars are on the battery meter? 

BlueHarbourBouy

So the PCP company want you to buy a new battery before you return the car? Don't think I will be getting one on these terms!

Goudy

I was reading recently that the BVRLA have updated their "Fair Wear & Tear" guidelines to include more EV related items.
I haven't yet seen it as the BVRLA keep it behind a pay wall, but could the finance company be jumping on that?

If the 60 miles range showing on your dash is a problem, as Petriix says that could be "fixed" pretty easily.
A tow to the top of a long steep hill would sort that out!

Strange though if they haven't yet inspected it that they should jump on that.
Have you told them it only charges to so many bars on the read out?

Exodi

FoBax said:

Hi - my car was due for collection at the end of our PCP contract. It’s a 2017 Nissan Leaf, but they refused to collect it as the battery only charges up to 60 miles. 

When we got the car 4 years ago it only had 86 mile range on full charge and I presumed this was standard fall in battery condition. It’s been serviced regularly with main Nissan dealership and had no issues.
The finance company (Mobilize) are saying I need to get the car fixed before I can hand it back. In our opinion the car is in good condition and fully roadworthy. Not sure how to proceed.

While I agree with all the others that the 'estimated range' counter isn't a reliable metric to go by (as you know, easily changed by playing with the heating and mode), it's notable that our best estimate of the SoH is 69.8% (60/86), this may be an issue - there seems to be countless articles online that suggest 70% SoH is the point a battery is considered end of life (see below from a brief Google search). The continual citing of specifically 70% leads me to believe this is possible defined in the updated BVRLA, as mentioned above. In any case, being (just) below this, may define your battery as past the end of it's life.

That is quite sharp degradation (though again, make sure this isn't the guess-o-meter/estimated range counter being pessimistic due to the driving mode). One issue I do see is the common advice to avoid charging from 50%>100%  and instead charging from 25%>75% (for example). With a smaller battery like yours, I can see how it would be easy without specifically setting charging limits in software to charge it to 100% overnight regardless. I think someone who not only was charging their car to 100% every time, but also 'topping it up' every night when it's on 90% could degrade the battery much faster - and I think this style of charging lends itself to the smaller battery cars like the Nissan Leaf.

I guess that's kind of irrelevant though. The main point will be asking them on what grounds they believe you are obliged to replace the battery due to it's SoH, and see what they provide.

"The lifetime capacity of a battery is referred to as its state of health (SoH). Brand new batteries have a 100% SoH, which inevitably reduces over time. When an EV battery falls to a 70% SoH, it’s considered to be at the end of its life."
https://www.vev.com/blog/the-truth-about-battery-degradation-in-electric-vehicles/#:~:text=The lifetime capacity of a,the end of its life.

"an EV battery is regarded as being at the end of its life when its SoH drops to 70%. Albeit, it’s possible for an EV battery to perform normally past this health point, and this is generally the case after around 10 years of usage."
https://connectedfleet.michelin.com/blog/ev-battery-health-and-degradation/#:~:text=This is where fleet managers,around 10 years of usage.

"A battery is considered to be at its end of life in a vehicle when it falls to a 70% SoH. Most experts expect a battery to reach this after about 10 years, although there is the potential for it to last much longer."
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/electric-fleet/policy/ev-batteries-talking-about-degradation

"as the battery nears the end of its life, it will have a sharp decline in capacity and performance. Most EV drivers will never see this, since the high voltage battery is considered “dead” when it is only around 70% empty! And, as a reminder, most EV drivers have not seen a battery degrade that far, since that is when most cars are eligible for a battery replacement. Very few modern EVs have been on the road long enough to reach this failure point."
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/lessons-in-electric-car-battery-health

etc

ThorOdinson

If it's a 2017 car then isn't it still under warranty on the battery? I thought it was 8b years or 100k miles, and 70%.

I recall with Nissan it's a number of bars on the dash. How many do you have?

Martyn1981

born_again said:

Range means nothing.
You need to check the battery state of Health.
2 ways, pay dealer. Or use a ODB2 connector & Leaf Spy.

I'd second this. When we had a Leaf, a 24kWh 2014 model, we got an ODB2 (I think it was about £7), and leaf Spy (basic) is free. Find out the SOH?

Ours was about 88% when we got it, and after a year of gentle granny charging, went up a bit to just over 90%*. All bars on the dash were showing throughout.

*I mention this, as V2G (vehicle to grid) trials which result in lots of 'gentle' charging and discharging, tended to improve battery health a little bit. Think of the difference in providing a couple of KW's to the house/grid for an hour or so, v's 70KW from hard acceleration for a few seconds.

As others have said/asked what is that 60 mile range? Was it just a one off, showing on the dash? This would be impacted by the recent driving style and conditions (which may have been hard/harsh), and also the temp on that day. Just selecting ECO mode and turning off the A/C should cause the range estimate to go up, which makes sense.

Also, as asked, is it a 24kWh or 30kWh? Our 24kWh could only do about 70miles (driven well/gently).

Really interested to know the SOH.

born_again

The V2G is a great idea, as a cheap leaf is around £2.5 K & far less that having a battery install. So seeing quite a few video's of people using Leaf as their home battery set up & saving a lot of money.