Saba/ ZZPS / debt - claim.com small claims court action quoting bylaws ?

andrewgarner

Coupon-mad said:

He attends hearings so has experience. He's a BMPA member like me, and I really think this case needs extra help.

As I said, a bad Judge in a hurry could get this badly wrong.

You could find yourself being 'barked' at by a Judge who misses the elephant in the room and instead decides to tear you off a strip and demand to know whether you paid for parking on the 5 occasions.  That is a danger and you need help at this hearing from someone to attend with you, who knows the law and will bring it back to focus ONLY on the 'elephant' and the Claimant's wholly unreasonable conduct in bring a long since time-barred (dead as a dodo) set of statutory PENALTIES to small claims!

Ok this is going to sound very naive I think....but this sounds astounding....I'm not sure I could withstand a "judge" missing an elephant in the room, isn't their job to spot elephants and such like....be the proverbial expert elephant spotter,  I think your advice of needing support is correct as I'm not expecting to have to point out how this is nonsense to a judge. My assumptions are based on zero experience and so are probably not well qualified 

Coupon-mad

No.

In contested litigation the law is (effectively) what you and the other side take/show/say on the courtroom in the day.

People who fail to prepare and think the Judge 'should know the law' have found out the hard way. Including in the case of OPS v Wilshaw at Lewes where I won the first hearing on every point. Then OPS appealed, I wasn't in court but Mrs Wilshaw's 'bargain' barrister was an embarrassment (car crash wittering and shuffling of papers, clearly unprepared).  As a result, OPS' barrister succeeded in arguing on VERY out of date (plainly wrong) case law and got away with astonishingly overturning a poorly pleaded case where the Claimant 'witness' (a paralegal) HADN'T EVEN SIGNED HER OWN WITNESS STATEMENT and the 'evidence' pics of the signs & lines were out of date (not the right signs & surface words), such that there was no copy of the contract at all.

The case was impossible to lose. Yet OPS won the appeal. They got lucky with a credulous Circuit Judge and appallingly bad representation for poor Mrs W.

Some Judges will always lap up the word of a legally represented party (regardless of merit). They can only determine a case based on what both sides say. It isn't their job to know about niche areas of law.  They'll look at it only if you take them to it and press their nose at the right paragraph.

It's the job of each party to point out the elephant, lead the Judge to water and make him/her drink. @kryten3000 will do that.

andrewgarner

Wow , ok thanks for the warning, i was at least right that my view is naive 😬.

I'll start doing my pre reading and find out what I don't know and try to fill my own knowledge gaps, so I'm able to convince an unsure judge.

Hopefully @kryten3000 is available 👌

Gr1pr

Not just your view, probably over 90% of joe public too, possibly skewed by the dramas seen on TV which dont show much about civil claims, especially private ones.  I have been studying threads on here for over a decade and every day is a school day. !

Perhaps bear in mind that usually a claimant will have people who do the job every day on the tasks, sometimes qualified legal eagles, plus it won't be their first rodeo, experience and pre knowledge are extremely useful if they are up against an unrepresented naive newbie that has little or no experience, is unrepresented and has pre conceptions that fail to take in the true nature of the beast . Having that Extra guidance and experience at your side, knowing the pitfalls and expecting the unexpected will definitely help you. ( As it would if I were in a similar position. )

The OP person in the thread below thinks they know better, they definitely don't 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6475957/help-rejection-of-internal-appeals-brittania-parking#latest

LDast

I’m not sure if you’re referring to me as “the person that thinks they know better”, but those are not my “thoughts”. They are the advice of a very experienced and long serving district judge. I am simply passing that advice as I am related to the judge and we have known each other since primary school and we regularly discuss the issues that are referred to on here.

Please feel free to add any advice received from an equally qualified person to point out any misconceptions or how the judiciary work. Anyone is free to ignore the advice but don’t dismiss it as being “wrong” just because it may be contrary to what has become gospel on here.

Gr1pr

Referring to You. ?  Definitely not !  ( But I do have reference points and have linked to some people , usually SRA registered lawyers & solicitors, or experienced lay persons . )

Edit 

To be clear, my thoughts lie with that OP and their thought processes throughout that saga , so edited my earlier reply

Same applies to the OP in the thread below too. ( Sailing too close to the wind or perjury , IMHO. )

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6544096/britannia-parking-pcn#latest

andrewgarner

Ok just had the letter to say the claimant hasn't paid the fee and so the it's been struck out 

andrewgarner

Seems to be a little bit a delay

Coupon-mad

andrewgarner said:

Ok just had the letter to say the claimant hasn't paid the fee and so the it's been struck out 

Very good!  I will tentatively say:

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!

But keep your paperwork for a good 6 months just in case the court are wrong and it suddenly all gets resurrected by the Claimant objecting behind your back. Has happened before.

Also this one is important to SABA who are clearly on a mission to make money from long dead Byelaws Penalties - and it was for a high £sum - so I'd be surprised if it is dead.

@kryten3000 will be interested.

We wanted SABA to send someone to attend court and be torn a new one by a canny Judge!

andrewgarner

Thanks so much especially @Coupon-mad

 and others who have been both very well informed and supportive 

Also special thanks to @kryton3000 for offering to attend.

I was pretty confident and well informed myself but it's clear these companies are relying on 90% intimidation which isn't pleasant to deal with.