Neighbour selling house, hasn't paid for shared fence costs

Blowsbubbles

Vectis said:

Blowsbubbles said:

 
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  

Where do you have it written that the fence is a shared responsibility financially?

You also say that the previous fence blew down during storms, which must beg the question as to who insures it, you or the neighbour? Why isn't the replacement of the fence covered by your or your neighbour's insurance?

Plus, and this is just a personal view, if replacing the fence is primarily to stop your dog straying onto other people's land then I think you should perhaps be paying for it. As I said, not a legal view, but it's the way I'd be viewing it. If I was a dog owner, I'd be securing the fences at my expense because it's my dog, and I'd want to keep it safe and not let it stray.

The previous fence was over 15 years old. My previous homeowners built it.  
 Their garden got very overgrown and was pushing it over. 
We helped them to clear some of the garden (for free)  then in the storms was final straw abs came down.  Wouldn't be covered under insurance.  

Blowsbubbles

GDB2222 said:

If it’s shared responsibility, then should you have involved the neighbour in the choice of fence panels? Composite fence panels are a bit marmite. They last for ages, but some people don’t want a plastic fence. 

Unless the neighbours agreed to pay part of the cost of the fence, having seen a quote, I think you don’t have any claim at all.

I did.  Asked owner he was happy. 
Agree with you on that hence why I said we would entirely cover panels.
We just asked for cost of post/cement and that installation. 
We sent them costs. 

Owner, verbal agreement. 
Daughter email,  but she was very poor at replying and kept saying how busy/ stressed she was so I didn't want to push 

Blowsbubbles

jimbog said:

Section62 said:

Vectis said:

Blowsbubbles said:

 
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  

Where do you have it written that the fence is a shared responsibility financially?

The OP clearly said "My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour." 

Vectis said:

You also say that the previous fence blew down during storms, which must beg the question as to who insures it, you or the neighbour? Why isn't the replacement of the fence covered by your or your neighbour's insurance?

Unless the deeds also say there is an obligation to insure the fence (unlikely) then neither party has to insure it, nor claim on any insurance policy they do have.  Some insurers could exclude fences from their cover.  All (AFAIK) regular home insurers have an excess on their home insurance policies and may increase premiums following any claim.  If the fence is an insured risk then the chances are that claiming half the cost of replacing/repairing it will either be below the excess, or won't be economically advantageous.

Vectis said:

Plus, and this is just a personal view, if replacing the fence is primarily to stop your dog straying onto other people's land then I think you should perhaps be paying for it. As I said, not a legal view, but it's the way I'd be viewing it. If I was a dog owner, I'd be securing the fences at my expense because it's my dog, and I'd want to keep it safe and not let it stray.

If the OP's deeds do state that the fence is a shared responsibility then why should they pay the whole cost? The fence is needed because the deeds say so. 

I hope the OP gave the neighbour a quote for the work before starting rather than pressing ahead regardless. 

Unlikely the covenants mention a 'fence', usually they say 'maintain the boundary'. A piece of string would meet that requirement

What your neighbour wouldn't want is a dispute with you especially now that they're selling

I did give quotes yes.  
I had verbal agreement from owner.  But not a written reply from daughter (owner went into care home) 

Blowsbubbles

ThisIsWeird said:

Blowsbubbles said:

Hi all,  looking for advice on how best to deal with this situation. 

My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour. I spoke to my elderly neighbour who was happy for it to be replaced as very old and leaning. 
In the interim he then moved into care home and I dealt with his daughter about it.  She had mentioned was OK with it but she had a lot on.  Totally understandable. 
Not wanting to press during a stressful period time went on.  
I asked a few times but little response. 
Then during bad storms the fence came down.  
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  
We decided to upgrade fence to a composite panels,  so only asked them for half the cost of the posts. We did ask the work ourselves.
We haven't heard anything back, but now notice house is up for sale.  
How would you proceed? 

Hi BB.

Very thoughtful of you to not keep hassling the daughter over the state of the fence, as you appreciated the stress the family were very likely going through at that time. Then the matter was taken out of your hands by the storm levelling the old knackered fence, and you needed a secure barrier for your dawg.

So that's all good and well. Then it gets a bit grey. Some (as I understand it) facts re fences:

1) Regardless of what the deeds say about 'ownership' or 'responsibility', it is - in practice - very hard/nigh on impossible to oblige or force a third party to put up a fence, or share the responsibility. If they just say 'Non', then you are almost always stuffed. (You would need a proactive deeds author to force these covenants, eg: possibly a housing developer who is still in business.)  Your only other recourse is to sort your own fence.

2) A 'shared' responsibility/ownership fence usually implies it sits astride the boundary line. This is good in some ways, and can be awkward in others. 'Good' in that costs are shared, and the fence typically only takes up a 2" strip of each person's land. 'Awkward' is that agreement on style and materials is required, and chasing up is needed if the third party doesn't respond - as in your case. Or if the third party simply says, 'Non'. On balance, seemingly more 'cons' than 'pros'?

3) AfaIk, the only ways you can 'force' another party to fix or replace their fence is (a) if they have dawgs or kids or other animals that need to be corralled within their own boundary, and are instead straying on to yours, or (b) if you can legally enforce the terms of their deeds - if their deeds say they must maintain a physical boundary, and you can find a way of enforcing this, such as asking the covenant author to act (say a developer on a newish housing scheme).

4) The only way to have full control over your fence is to make it 100% yours. That means it's bought and paid for by you, and is installed fully within your land; ie the fence posts do not 'straddle', but simply 'touch' the boundary line.

So, although what you have done here would be considered - by the vast majority of neighbours - to not only have been perfectly reasonable under the circumstances (fence down, dawgs need securing, neighbour unresponsive), and even worthy of gratitude (huge savings on a long-life fence), an entitled pita 'ole neighbour could make life awkward for you.

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen with your current or new neighbour, but - if it does - then it'll tell you a lot about what you have living next door to you, so beware. :-)

'Technically' you have done some 'wrong' (as well as good). The only way to have safeguarded yourself 100% was to have moved that fence 2" so that it sat fully on your land, and then it becomes 100% yours. At fully your cost, of course. Or, perhaps, given them a recordable notice of your intentions, along with, "If I don't hear back by the Xth, then..."

Since you have already taken on the vast majority of the cost - all the panels, all the labour, and are only asking for half the posts - then I would suggest it isn't worth pursuing. There is a small risk of it triggering an 'ole, whereas it currently should be seen as the decent move by you that it actually is.

You could drop it into conversation with the new neighbs if they happen to prompt it? If you are having a 'welcome' chat, and they mention how having such a new and good quality fence was a pleasant surprise for them, you can explain what happened - but with no suggestion they cough up, of course :-) It should show you in a good light.

If they say, "Lawdie - I hate these plastic fences...", then, er...

Thanks this is weird.
Yes I have made sure my fence is fully on my land.  

Ideally I would like current owners to pay towards the post cost as mentioned.  However I wouldn't be chasing a new owner for this.  

I am however a little concerned that new neighbour may attach items onto my fence,  and I am a little concerned for damage onto the plastic panels.  

(Technicslly they aren't fence panels,  but stackable house panels, so if one breaks/damage you have to lift all the others so major faff, plus they are a little brittle compared to wood so can't be drilled into).

I def don't want to be a pedantic neighbour,  but I guess at some point going to have to drop in conversation is my fence and not to be touched!
 Just would prefer it to be legally written down so they can't come back on me and say its legally shared 

Blowsbubbles

Section62 said:

jimbog said:

I hope the OP gave the neighbour a quote for the work before starting rather than pressing ahead regardless.

Why would the OP have to give the neighbour a quote?  If the neighbour is just happy for the OP to do the work and pay half the cost when asked then there is no need for a "quote".

jimbog said:

Unlikely the covenants mention a 'fence', usually they say 'maintain the boundary'. A piece of string would meet that requirement

Covenants can refer to maintenance of a "fence" or they can refer to a "boundary".  Both are possible.  The probability of which applies in the OP's case isn't certain - but they seem to know what they are doing in terms of replacing the fence so I'd give them the benefit of any doubt that they have read and understood the covenant properly.  Something for the OP to confirm for themselves of course.

Thanks section 62

Yes owner said he was happy
Daughter said he had loads of money
I did send them quotes

My house has many odd covenants (according to my conveyancer) it was built as part of a social experiment where they were trying to have us all neighbourly and sharing.  Have shared paths and gardens too.... but that's a story for a different day!! 

anselld

Blowsbubbles said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Blowsbubbles said:

Hi all,  looking for advice on how best to deal with this situation. 

My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour. I spoke to my elderly neighbour who was happy for it to be replaced as very old and leaning. 
In the interim he then moved into care home and I dealt with his daughter about it.  She had mentioned was OK with it but she had a lot on.  Totally understandable. 
Not wanting to press during a stressful period time went on.  
I asked a few times but little response. 
Then during bad storms the fence came down.  
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  
We decided to upgrade fence to a composite panels,  so only asked them for half the cost of the posts. We did ask the work ourselves.
We haven't heard anything back, but now notice house is up for sale.  
How would you proceed? 

Hi BB.

Very thoughtful of you to not keep hassling the daughter over the state of the fence, as you appreciated the stress the family were very likely going through at that time. Then the matter was taken out of your hands by the storm levelling the old knackered fence, and you needed a secure barrier for your dawg.

So that's all good and well. Then it gets a bit grey. Some (as I understand it) facts re fences:

1) Regardless of what the deeds say about 'ownership' or 'responsibility', it is - in practice - very hard/nigh on impossible to oblige or force a third party to put up a fence, or share the responsibility. If they just say 'Non', then you are almost always stuffed. (You would need a proactive deeds author to force these covenants, eg: possibly a housing developer who is still in business.)  Your only other recourse is to sort your own fence.

2) A 'shared' responsibility/ownership fence usually implies it sits astride the boundary line. This is good in some ways, and can be awkward in others. 'Good' in that costs are shared, and the fence typically only takes up a 2" strip of each person's land. 'Awkward' is that agreement on style and materials is required, and chasing up is needed if the third party doesn't respond - as in your case. Or if the third party simply says, 'Non'. On balance, seemingly more 'cons' than 'pros'?

3) AfaIk, the only ways you can 'force' another party to fix or replace their fence is (a) if they have dawgs or kids or other animals that need to be corralled within their own boundary, and are instead straying on to yours, or (b) if you can legally enforce the terms of their deeds - if their deeds say they must maintain a physical boundary, and you can find a way of enforcing this, such as asking the covenant author to act (say a developer on a newish housing scheme).

4) The only way to have full control over your fence is to make it 100% yours. That means it's bought and paid for by you, and is installed fully within your land; ie the fence posts do not 'straddle', but simply 'touch' the boundary line.

So, although what you have done here would be considered - by the vast majority of neighbours - to not only have been perfectly reasonable under the circumstances (fence down, dawgs need securing, neighbour unresponsive), and even worthy of gratitude (huge savings on a long-life fence), an entitled pita 'ole neighbour could make life awkward for you.

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen with your current or new neighbour, but - if it does - then it'll tell you a lot about what you have living next door to you, so beware. :-)

'Technically' you have done some 'wrong' (as well as good). The only way to have safeguarded yourself 100% was to have moved that fence 2" so that it sat fully on your land, and then it becomes 100% yours. At fully your cost, of course. Or, perhaps, given them a recordable notice of your intentions, along with, "If I don't hear back by the Xth, then..."

Since you have already taken on the vast majority of the cost - all the panels, all the labour, and are only asking for half the posts - then I would suggest it isn't worth pursuing. There is a small risk of it triggering an 'ole, whereas it currently should be seen as the decent move by you that it actually is.

You could drop it into conversation with the new neighbs if they happen to prompt it? If you are having a 'welcome' chat, and they mention how having such a new and good quality fence was a pleasant surprise for them, you can explain what happened - but with no suggestion they cough up, of course :-) It should show you in a good light.

If they say, "Lawdie - I hate these plastic fences...", then, er...

Thanks this is weird.
Yes I have made sure my fence is fully on my land.  

Ideally I would like current owners to pay towards the post cost as mentioned.  However I wouldn't be chasing a new owner for this.  

I am however a little concerned that new neighbour may attach items onto my fence,  and I am a little concerned for damage onto the plastic panels.  

(Technicslly they aren't fence panels,  but stackable house panels, so if one breaks/damage you have to lift all the others so major faff, plus they are a little brittle compared to wood so can't be drilled into).

I def don't want to be a pedantic neighbour,  but I guess at some point going to have to drop in conversation is my fence and not to be touched!
 Just would prefer it to be legally written down so they can't come back on me and say its legally shared 

Your desire for this to be your own fence under your own control is inconsistent with receiving a share of the construction cost from the neighbours.  If full ownership is most important to you then you should drop your claim for costs.

steve866

‘Dear Neighbour’s daughter,

I am writing to follow up on when to expect payment for the fence as agreed.

I appreciate this is a stressful time for you, however I am concerned this could get missed as part of the property sale and I’ll be left without the bill being settled.

As a reminder, your half is £X which is for posts only, I covered the panels and labour.

I’d appreciate it if you could settle this by the end of the month. My bank details are:

XXX.’

If they don’t pay by then, more stern warning hinting that a neighbour dispute could cause problems for their sale. 

ThisIsWeird

Blowsbubbles said:

Yes I have made sure my fence is fully on my land. 
Ideally I would like current owners to pay towards the post cost as mentioned.  However I wouldn't be chasing a new owner for this. 
I am however a little concerned that new neighbour may attach items onto my fence,  and I am a little concerned for damage onto the plastic panels. 
(Technicslly they aren't fence panels,  but stackable house panels, so if one breaks/damage you have to lift all the others so major faff, plus they are a little brittle compared to wood so can't be drilled into).
I def don't want to be a pedantic neighbour,  but I guess at some point going to have to drop in conversation is my fence and not to be touched!
 Just would prefer it to be legally written down so they can't come back on me and say its legally shared 

Ah, the BitInBold is a different situation.
The deeds seemingly indicate it's a 'shared' responsibility, and that almost certainly implies that the fence is 'party' and runs on the (invisible) boundary line. In which case, you do indeed share ownership and responsibility, and that theoretically includes that you can both stick stuff to your 'own' sides (as long as it doesn't cause damage, of course...)

However, you say you replaced the posts 'like for like', but you also say it's 'fully' on your side of the boundary line? Does this mean that the 'old' fence was also fully on your side? If so, it is not a 'shared' fence, but fully yours. Please clarify how certain you are that the fence is on your side of the boundary. If it is, then there is no deeds-implied 'obligation' for the neighb to contribute to what is entirely yours, but, of course, most folk would still be happy to do so if they understand that it 'should' be shared.

If the fence is fully on your side of the boundary, then that carries pros and cons. 'Pro' - it belongs entirely to you, and no-one should touch it. 'Con' - there is no enforceable obligation for the other party to contribute to it.

What to do? I think Steve's email (or other recordable method) suggestion is good. If they still fail to cough up, tho', I think I'd be inclined to leave it. But that's your call, and if you wanted to drop the 'dispute' word into a conversation, then that's up to you. You could do this 'innocently', as if your main concern is 'for them not to leave themselves open to a claim by the buyer', after all, "the SIP does ask about things like this, any unresolved issues, potentially leading to a dispute...". 
Tbh, if they still don't cough up, it isn't worth pursuing, and I'm pleased you wouldn't expect the new owner to do so either. But, you may wish to explain to the new owner, when the opp arises in a friendly conversation, that their predecessor was reluctant to contribute to what was a shared fence, so you sorted it all yourself - 'and ensured it was now fully on your land so you wouldn't have to bother having to negotiate again over it again'. Ie, make sure they twig that the fence is all yours, fully on your land. They should then figure out that they mustn't touch it, but you obviously need to monitor this.
But, be 100% certain you can demonstrate it's 100% on your side of the 'line'!

sheramber

The previous fence was over 15 years old. My previous homeowners built it.  

Could be the previous fence was built on the OP's property.

GDB2222

If this was all agreed in advance, then just send a gentle reminder to the daughter that you are expecting £X. 

I really don’t suppose that you would sue for the money, so there’s no point worrying about the legal niceties. 

You did a 200 foot fence yourself, so I take my hat off to you. That’s 30+ fence posts, digging holes, mixing concrete. A massive amount of work!