Neighbour selling house, hasn't paid for shared fence costs

Section62

Vectis said:

Blowsbubbles said:

 
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  

Where do you have it written that the fence is a shared responsibility financially?

The OP clearly said "My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour." 

Vectis said:

You also say that the previous fence blew down during storms, which must beg the question as to who insures it, you or the neighbour? Why isn't the replacement of the fence covered by your or your neighbour's insurance?

Unless the deeds also say there is an obligation to insure the fence (unlikely) then neither party has to insure it, nor claim on any insurance policy they do have.  Some insurers could exclude fences from their cover.  All (AFAIK) regular home insurers have an excess on their home insurance policies and may increase premiums following any claim.  If the fence is an insured risk then the chances are that claiming half the cost of replacing/repairing it will either be below the excess, or won't be economically advantageous.

Vectis said:

Plus, and this is just a personal view, if replacing the fence is primarily to stop your dog straying onto other people's land then I think you should perhaps be paying for it. As I said, not a legal view, but it's the way I'd be viewing it. If I was a dog owner, I'd be securing the fences at my expense because it's my dog, and I'd want to keep it safe and not let it stray.

If the OP's deeds do state that the fence is a shared responsibility then why should they pay the whole cost? The fence is needed because the deeds say so.  They have done more than they needed to do by making the arrangements and doing much of the work themselves.  The neighbour and her daughter both agreed to the work being done, presumably in the knowledge they were paying half the cost.

The OP could have discharged their legal responsibility to contain the dog, and to keep it safe, by putting up a chicken wire fence inside the shared boundary fence.

As the neighbour's property is going to be sold it is likely the buyer's solicitor will see what the deeds say, and the surveyor would (have) note(d) the old and 'dangerous' fence.  The buyer would probably have asked the neighbour to get the fence replaced before completion to avoid the cost and also the potential risk of getting into a neighbour dispute from the start.  If you are going to impose a moral duty on the OP to bear the cost of replacing the fence because they own a dog, then we also have to impose a like moral duty on the neighbour to follow through on what they agreed, and also to get this sorted before the property is sold and becomes someone else's problem.

Section62

Tiglet2 said:

Isn't it a shared "boundary", rather than a shared fence?  A boundary doesn't mean you have to have a fence at all, though if there are children or dogs, the parent or owner has a responsibility to keep them contained within their own garden, therefore a fence in this case would be necessary.  

It does if your deeds say so, and according to the OP they do....

jimbog

Section62 said:

Vectis said:

Blowsbubbles said:

 
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  

Where do you have it written that the fence is a shared responsibility financially?

The OP clearly said "My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour." 

Vectis said:

You also say that the previous fence blew down during storms, which must beg the question as to who insures it, you or the neighbour? Why isn't the replacement of the fence covered by your or your neighbour's insurance?

Unless the deeds also say there is an obligation to insure the fence (unlikely) then neither party has to insure it, nor claim on any insurance policy they do have.  Some insurers could exclude fences from their cover.  All (AFAIK) regular home insurers have an excess on their home insurance policies and may increase premiums following any claim.  If the fence is an insured risk then the chances are that claiming half the cost of replacing/repairing it will either be below the excess, or won't be economically advantageous.

Vectis said:

Plus, and this is just a personal view, if replacing the fence is primarily to stop your dog straying onto other people's land then I think you should perhaps be paying for it. As I said, not a legal view, but it's the way I'd be viewing it. If I was a dog owner, I'd be securing the fences at my expense because it's my dog, and I'd want to keep it safe and not let it stray.

If the OP's deeds do state that the fence is a shared responsibility then why should they pay the whole cost? The fence is needed because the deeds say so. 

I hope the OP gave the neighbour a quote for the work before starting rather than pressing ahead regardless. 

Unlikely the covenants mention a 'fence', usually they say 'maintain the boundary'. A piece of string would meet that requirement

What your neighbour wouldn't want is a dispute with you especially now that they're selling

jimbog

Section62 said:

Tiglet2 said:

Isn't it a shared "boundary", rather than a shared fence?  A boundary doesn't mean you have to have a fence at all, though if there are children or dogs, the parent or owner has a responsibility to keep them contained within their own garden, therefore a fence in this case would be necessary.  

It does if your deeds say so, and according to the OP they do....

The OP is yet to come back to us with the exact wording

ThisIsWeird

Blowsbubbles said:

Hi all,  looking for advice on how best to deal with this situation. 

My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility with neighbour. I spoke to my elderly neighbour who was happy for it to be replaced as very old and leaning. 
In the interim he then moved into care home and I dealt with his daughter about it.  She had mentioned was OK with it but she had a lot on.  Totally understandable. 
Not wanting to press during a stressful period time went on.  
I asked a few times but little response. 
Then during bad storms the fence came down.  
We needed to have it replaced as garden not secure for dog so did.  
We decided to upgrade fence to a composite panels,  so only asked them for half the cost of the posts. We did ask the work ourselves.
We haven't heard anything back, but now notice house is up for sale.  
How would you proceed? 

Hi BB.

Very thoughtful of you to not keep hassling the daughter over the state of the fence, as you appreciated the stress the family were very likely going through at that time. Then the matter was taken out of your hands by the storm levelling the old knackered fence, and you needed a secure barrier for your dawg.

So that's all good and well. Then it gets a bit grey. Some (as I understand it) facts re fences:

1) Regardless of what the deeds say about 'ownership' or 'responsibility', it is - in practice - very hard/nigh on impossible to oblige or force a third party to put up a fence, or share the responsibility. If they just say 'Non', then you are almost always stuffed. (You would need a proactive deeds author to force these covenants, eg: possibly a housing developer who is still in business.)  Your only other recourse is to sort your own fence.

2) A 'shared' responsibility/ownership fence usually implies it sits astride the boundary line. This is good in some ways, and can be awkward in others. 'Good' in that costs are shared, and the fence typically only takes up a 2" strip of each person's land. 'Awkward' is that agreement on style and materials is required, and chasing up is needed if the third party doesn't respond - as in your case. Or if the third party simply says, 'Non'. On balance, seemingly more 'cons' than 'pros'?

3) AfaIk, the only ways you can 'force' another party to fix or replace their fence is (a) if they have dawgs or kids or other animals that need to be corralled within their own boundary, and are instead straying on to yours, or (b) if you can legally enforce the terms of their deeds - if their deeds say they must maintain a physical boundary, and you can find a way of enforcing this, such as asking the covenant author to act (say a developer on a newish housing scheme).

4) The only way to have full control over your fence is to make it 100% yours. That means it's bought and paid for by you, and is installed fully within your land; ie the fence posts do not 'straddle', but simply 'touch' the boundary line.

So, although what you have done here would be considered - by the vast majority of neighbours - to not only have been perfectly reasonable under the circumstances (fence down, dawgs need securing, neighbour unresponsive), and even worthy of gratitude (huge savings on a long-life fence), an entitled pita 'ole neighbour could make life awkward for you.

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen with your current or new neighbour, but - if it does - then it'll tell you a lot about what you have living next door to you, so beware. :-)

'Technically' you have done some 'wrong' (as well as good). The only way to have safeguarded yourself 100% was to have moved that fence 2" so that it sat fully on your land, and then it becomes 100% yours. At fully your cost, of course. Or, perhaps, given them a recordable notice of your intentions, along with, "If I don't hear back by the Xth, then..."

Since you have already taken on the vast majority of the cost - all the panels, all the labour, and are only asking for half the posts - then I would suggest it isn't worth pursuing. There is a small risk of it triggering an 'ole, whereas it currently should be seen as the decent move by you that it actually is.

You could drop it into conversation with the new neighbs if they happen to prompt it? If you are having a 'welcome' chat, and they mention how having such a new and good quality fence was a pleasant surprise for them, you can explain what happened - but with no suggestion they cough up, of course :-) It should show you in a good light.

If they say, "Lawdie - I hate these plastic fences...", then, er...

chrisw

Presumably it's now all paid for. Personally, if they later offer then fine, otherwise I would forget about it, enjoy my new fence and move on.

Section62

jimbog said:

I hope the OP gave the neighbour a quote for the work before starting rather than pressing ahead regardless.

Why would the OP have to give the neighbour a quote?  If the neighbour is just happy for the OP to do the work and pay half the cost when asked then there is no need for a "quote".

jimbog said:

Unlikely the covenants mention a 'fence', usually they say 'maintain the boundary'. A piece of string would meet that requirement

Covenants can refer to maintenance of a "fence" or they can refer to a "boundary".  Both are possible.  The probability of which applies in the OP's case isn't certain - but they seem to know what they are doing in terms of replacing the fence so I'd give them the benefit of any doubt that they have read and understood the covenant properly.  Something for the OP to confirm for themselves of course.

Blowsbubbles

propertyrental said:

why do you say : "My deeds state that our fence is a shared responsibility "? Please quote exact wording and where in the deeds this is stated.

Given that you have unilaterally decided to "upgrade fence to a composite panels, " why are you still asking for half the cost since you believe it's a shared responsibility? The 'shared responsibility' (if true) is for the cost of like-for-like replacement unless you both agree to upgrade.

Frankly, in this case, I'd just let it go. The fence seems to be for your benefit (the dog) so just suck up the cost...!

Haven't got deeds on me atm to quote,  but I do remember looking it up when first realised needed replacement and hence why approaching them. 

The posts are like for like,  which is what we are asking them to share.  The upgrade we covered ourselves including installation so considerably cheaper for them.  We also took care of all the waste with no charge to them.  

Blowsbubbles

trix-a-belle said:

Blowsbubbles said:

 
We decided to upgrade fence to a composite panels,  so only asked them for half the cost of the posts. We did ask the work ourselves.

propertyrental said:

Given that you have unilaterally decided to "upgrade fence to a composite panels, " why are you still asking for half the cost since you believe it's a shared responsibility? The 'shared responsibility' (if true) is for the cost of like-for-like replacement unless you both agree to upgrade.

propertyrental, I suggest you read the OPs text a little slower. I have split out the relevant part for you, they are asking for half the cost of the posts only.
The OP has paid their cost of half the posts and the full cost of the panels which they have chosen to upgrade & have done all the labour themselves, therefore they have saved the neighbour any share of labour costs

Thank you trix-a-belle exactly that

Blowsbubbles

Herzlos said:

Blowsbubbles said:
We decided to upgrade fence to a composite panels,  so only asked them for half the cost of the posts. We did ask the work ourselves.

How much are you wanting from them? I can't imagine it's really enough to worry about here

Garden is about 200 foot so its a far bit.  
We spent considerable time doing the work,  clearing the old stuff and have done so so much to help them as they are elderly so in part it would just be nice to have some of the financial share for it which was agreed,  and as stated part of our legal agreement.  

When I originally asked the owner he was agreeable, and when I mentioned to daughter about cost,  she laughed and said oh don't worry he's got loads of money. 

We're struggling, hence would be really helpful so we can do other work. 

(The composite panels we got as rejects in case anyone wondering about cost there)