parking eye charge gone to notice to proceed

private_detective

Hi all

received a notice to proceed from Parking Eye  - PE. 

first we heard of the matter was receiving the initial court claim forms. 

having parked some months earlier to use a pub on a business park. my wife was driver, i am keeper. notice is to keeper. 
We went into the pub and my wife immediately asked about parking charges. the staff told her to put reg into machine, which she did. - there is no receipt given. 

on receiving the court forms, we contacted the manager of the pub who said they would try and sort it. They said they were fed up with the number of such complaints as its affecting their business.  

we submitted a defence to the court. including the chat with the manager, and that using a business on that business park entitles for parking up to 4 hours. 

The court referred back to Parking Eye. they said parking eye may proceed. I havent yet checked that they are within the time limit

PE then sent us a letter to offer us to pay 70. they said that they had to assert that charges as it had gone to court. Although from the paperwork, the initial charge presented was 100.  Then to the court 100  plus costs. being some 210. 
we emailed to say that as per the defence, as we used the pub, we were entitled to parking for the 2.5 hours that we were there so would decline that 'offer.'

weve now received a notice to proceed. 

they suggest they are doing so to mitigate costs because they had to file at the  court. they are claiming for the some 210. - this seems to be a slight contradiction 

in it they say they are proceeding as they went to court not knowing we used the pub. 
however, for whatever reason, we had not heard of anything until the court form arrived. 
If we we heard earlier, it wouldve been far easier to tell them that we used the pub and parking was included. In fact we've had to do that in the past when the wife was shopping at Aldi and received a charge in the post. she took it to the shop manager on her next visit and it was cancelled. indeed this forum advises to contact the store first. so why are they asserting that we were wrong to do so?
 ther is no reason that we wouldnt have got in touch with the pub straight away had we been aware. I cannot say why we had not been aware of previous letters that were apparently sent.

PE go on to say that there is no evidence that we used the pub nor that we spoke to the manager.
However, in the defence submitted to the court, we included emails between us and the pub and provided the full name of the manager. As far as i recall, this included a screenshot of the paymenets out of our bank account made on the night, so the manager could look it up. 
PE go on to say that we should not have contacted the pub in the first instance. 

PE suggest that we should not be allowed to submit any new evidence? unless we do so via the proper form and fee. At a glance that seems to be some £250? 

we went there in winter a few hours after sunset. so i cant recall if lighting of signage was adequate. 

weve taken some big financial hits recentlly and really could do without this. 
Its rare that we can afford to go out, as we did on that night. 

Id appreciate any advice on what will happen next and what to do next. 
ive sat reading the newbies thread this afternoon, but i want to make sure i do the right thing.
the whole thing is a nonsense as far as im concerned. 

thanks
-------
points to note. 
looking through the bundle sent - 
i note that the signage to pay at a terminal is not displayed at all outside the pub. 
one of the signs on the way in is on the entracne road, with writing  that a driver would not be able to read. the whole sign is not particualrly readable when concentrating on driving.  

they have supplied copies of letters that we have not previously been aware of. 
one of those letters does refer to the PE vs Beavis UKSC 67. 
the final line of the reference, says '...delivers a binding precedent in respect of the value of the parking charge.'
- not sure how they can use the legal definition of 'the' here. Also, in that case, the charge was £85 and here its £100.  Ive only read the court blog at the moment, so i cannot see if the SC said all £85 charges were reasonable, or that particular one was.  

Reading through some the SC blog of the Beavis case, Im wondering if its unfair or a trap to not supply a receipt as proof of using the machine? 

Im also reading through the case that QC nicholas Bowen brought against PE. and that he counter claimed for his costs. Im dismayed at just how much time this sort of thing takes up and usually without consideration for compensation should it be found iin favour of the defendant. 


I understand his beef was particulalry because he parked in a service station, but in theory being able to park up to rest should not be particular to motorways. And his comments about consumer law are interesting - is it relevant to me here? 

 - QC brown comments against PE - 
“My defence was that your contract was unenforceable, and that you have no legal right to charge members of the public for night parking in service station car parks. Charging overstayers at night is unfair and a violation of consumer protection law. I defended your misconceived claim on a public interest basis, as it would have been far easier just to pay the ticket.”
'indulging in pernicious bullying tactics against motorists” and claimed it was relying “either on apathy, or that most of your victims lack the ability or funds to fight back”. He added: “I hope ParkingEye will learn a lesson from losing this case, reconsider your contractual terms and change what is an unlawful and unconscionable practice.'

nopcns

private_detective said:

we submitted a defence to the court. including the chat with the manager, and that using a business on that business park entitles for parking up to 4 hours. 

The court referred back to Parking Eye. they said parking eye may proceed. I havent yet checked that they are within the time limit

PE then sent us a letter to offer us to pay 70. they said that they had to assert that charges as it had gone to court. Although from the paperwork, the initial charge presented was 100.  Then to the court 100  plus costs. being some 210. 
we emailed to say that as per the defence, as we used the pub, we were entitled to parking for the 2.5 hours that we were there so would decline that 'offer.'

weve now received a notice to proceed. 

Not quite sure I understand this bit. You received a claim form (N1SDT) and you submitted a defence. What is this "the court referred back to PE and said they may proceed"? Are PE representing themselves or are they using DCB Legal?

It sounds like you ay be confusing who is the Claimant and who is actually representing them. The above all sounds like the usual DCB Legal scam. DCBL will have added £70 to the original £100 charge and then when it went to a claim, their sister company DCB Legal have filed on behalf of PE and the claim is for c£260.

Can you please confirm who is acting for PE.

You can ignore the male bovine excrement coming from DCB Legal about the costs they've already had to cover. That is their problem for making the claim in the first place. PE will normally handle their own claims. However, when they know they are on dodgy ground should it get to court, they pass it over to DCB Legal to try and scare the defendant into paying up.

What exactly did you put in your defence? Verbatim.

Coupon-mad

Sounds like the usual ParkingEye template reply to defence.  Nothing important.

PEye won't have seen your evidence because the CNBC doesn't handle evidence and will have only forwarded your defence.   You were not meant to send evidence at this stage.  No harm done, but no-one has seen it which is why ParkingEye said they hadn't.

DO NOT agree to Mediation.

DO NOT be tempted by lower offers to settle.  You would win this case in court, if you get as far as a hearing. I don't think it will.

DO NOT respond to this bog standard letter; except you could just send them that evidence by email now, to:

enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

...and tell them to discontinue because that pub contract is hanging on a knife-edge (the pub is fed up and in touch with you) and the attached landowner email will be supplied to court at WS stage.

Read the NEWBIES thread section about WS and exhibits stage.  But I think PEye will discontinue soon, if you try the above & push them to 'drop hands' with both parties walking away.  Give them 14 days to respond.  Do NOT agree to pay £60 to make it go away.  Hold your stance. Poker face.

private_detective

thanks for replies so far. Its relieves the worry a little. But still taking up far too much of our time.

I will post verbatim as requested, as I can see why that would help and would prbably ask the same. but I note in the newbies file it suggested to making the matter too identifiable?

Notes of the case so far -

court.

first we heard of the charge was a court claim form.

we received a court claim form – in the civil national business centre. Claimant = ParkingEye Ltd. There is a name at the bottom but no tittle or legal firm, only says ‘claimants legal representative.’

In the first instance I contacted the pub to ask why this might have happened.

It was passed to the manager who suggested that he was fed up with it all as its affecting his pub. There are a few complaints online where people say the same – went for a great reasonably priced meal received a parking charge and now will not return. The manager asked us to call him so he could resolve it. During that conversation he asked for a copy of the court document so he could make referecne to it when he called Parking Eye. We sent him an electronic copy.

We hoped that this would result in the case being withdrawn.

I didn’t hear back from the manager at this point so I submitted a defence.

Here is the defence as submitted. -
(verbatim with personal detail removed)
On the date the claim refers to, my wife and I, with our xxx children, did visit xxxxxx (business park) to celebrate at the xxxxx pub whilst making use of my blue light services and military discount card.

It was for my birthday. I was medically discharged from HM military and suffer health problems, i am reg disabled, we have very low income. I do not go out much.

Since receiving this claim dated xx Feb we confirmed with the General Manager of that pub – xxxx (manager)

- xxxx (pub managers email address -

that we did the correct thing on the date we visited. We asked the bar staff about the parking arrangement and were directed to a machine to enter our car registration, which my wife duly did. Xxxx (manager) recently confirmed as we had been told on night; that patrons (I believe of all the services at xxx (buisiness park): cinema, pub, etc) are entitled to 4 hours parking at no cost.

We had also displayed my blue badge before we alighted from our car. When we contacted xxx (manager) recently about this he suggested that he was fed up with the number of customers that refuse to return because of the antics of Parking Eye.

On 27 Feb, xxxx (manager) asked us to email the claim details and said he would deal with it.

My wife emailed a copy of the claim.

To date, we have not heard confirmation from xxx (manager) that the claim has been dealt with by them, but i have no reason to doubt him. I hoped that i might receive a cancelled notice prior to contacting the Court. But it has been a short time since xxxx (manager) said they would deal with it. Oddly, some three days ago, I received a solicitors letter representing parking eye, giving me an opportunity to pay a reduced fee before it is referred to court. Yet I'd obviously already received a court letter with an issue date of xxth Feb and a served date of xxxx (6 days later).

In short, I cannot be liable for this parking charge.

Xxxx (manager), xxxxx(pub) submits that I was/am not liable for parking fee nor charge.

At the charge date I was a patron at the xxxxx Pub. Patrons are entitled to at least 4 hours parking without charge. Perhaps unnecessarily, but further; whilst I have not determined whether there is a disabled concession at that place, I did display my badge.

I need to make whomever aware, my health is variable and some days i am not up to doing much.

I thanks the court for its consideration. Note:

xxxx (manager) asked us to call them. My wife did. They said he would deal with it:-

Hi xxxxx,

Can you call me on the number below and I can resolve this. Kind regards,

(manager name and contact details supplied)

- unfortunately / fortunately, I did not make a counter claim for time.

Court

the court sent me a letter dated the day after my submission

- I acknowledge receipt of your defence. A copy is being served on the claimant. The claimant may contact you direct to attempt to resolve any dispute.. If the dispute cannot be resolved informally, the claimant will inform the court that he wished to proceed. The court will then inform you of what will happen.

Where he wishes to proceed, the claimant must contact the court within 28 days after receiving a copy of your defence. After that period has elapsed, the claim will be stayed. The claimant can ask a judge to lift the stay.

Parking eye
I received a letter dated one day after the court letter date

a without prejudice (save as to costs)

We write regarding the above ref Parking Charge and subsequent County Court Claim, werin we are seeking to recover £210

we are now in receipt of further information and in an effort to bring this matter to a conclusion without further cost to either party, we can confirm that we are prepared to accept £70 in settlement of the claim.

The offer is open for 14 days. The matter will be closed upon receipt, but will remain open should it not be paid.

Me to parkingeye

I emailed parking eye.

without predjudice

Apologies for the delay. I suffer disability and health issues.

I trust you have the defence submitted to the court.

The landlord of the pub we used – xxxxxxxxx - confirmed that he has spoken to your offices to try to resolve the matter as per the defence.

Patrons of the xxxxxxx (pub) and presumably all the businesses at xxxxxxx (business park) are entitled to some 4 hours parking without further fee for their patronage.

I did also display my blue badge.
I trust this will bring this matter to a conclusion.
please remove my email address from your data on conclusion of this matter.
Yours

parking eye to me.

Email in response to above.

Parkingeye can confirm receipt of your correspondence, however, we note that you have filed a defence to the above referenced claim. Therefore, the points you have raised will be answered within our future pleadings/evidence. 

Yours sincerely,

Parkingeye Enforcement Team

NOTE – I thought their wording is odd. Its as if they are sayig that they sent me the letter offering a settlement without knowing that id submitted a defence? Of course the letter mentions receiving the defence.

Me

I emailed the manager again telling him that PE are proceeding with the claim. I ask what happened when he spoke to them and whether he can provide a statement.

The manager tried to call us a few times, but we missed those calls. We called him back but played voicemail tennis. I emailed again to ask for a reply by email. Its preferred anyway as it is some form of evidence.

Pub Manager

emailed us with the following

I contacted parking eye as discussed and I believe they have been in contact. Parking eye have agreed to reduce the charge down however they can not cancel now it is at the point of court proceedings. 

Unfortunately as a company we are unable to assist in this any further now it has become a legal matter. But please be assured I did contact Parking Eye and their response was the only resolution they could offer.  The only other thing I can offer which may be of help is a receipt from your visit to provide in court, if you can provide me with the total of your transaction spent and roughly the items your ordered I can look this up for you. 

(PE also said to me that they cannot cancel it as its now court proceedings. However this makes no sense when asking me to settle by paying their original invoice. )

(PE in their Notice to proceed pack received a few days ago and mentioned later in this thread, state that they did not hear from the manager)

Me

we replied with screenshots of our bank account showing the transaction at the pub.

Manager

sent an electronic copy of our receipt.

Me

I emailed the manager to thank them. I included the accusation of PE and asked the manager if they would send a quick statement. I did not receive a reply.

Hi
just to update you
weve received small claims court papers .
the claim states

1. the defendant did not pay the tariff or enter the vehicle reg on the terminal which is a breech of terms and conditions.  - we did, my wife did as instructed by your staff

5. defendant claims tha tthey contacted the manager who said it would be cancelled. (not the actual wording we used.) a cancillation request must be authorised by the landholder in conjunction with parking eye. Parking eye have received no such request. . th edefendant has not supplied any evidence in suport of this claim.

Xxxx (manager) can you please send a quick statement to addresss this please so i can send it in evidence. Its disgusting that they are lying.

- have you had any other complaints that the termial might be faulty?  poor signage?

PE are supposed to admin the car parks with due consideration to customer and consumer rights, as well as not to damage the businesses.

 I welcome any further comment you have on this matter.
many thanks

Parking Eye

some 2.5 weeks later we have received a notice to proceed from parking eye as outlined in my Original Post.

Its a pack that contains a request to not allow me to submit anymore evidence unless I use a form and pay the fee of £275.

contains several printouts of signage examples and locations.

I wonder how it can be legal to send ANPR style charges. It removes the consumers rights to gather contemporaneous evidence.

I cant even go back to see if the sign were well lit on a cold winter night.

An Aside -

Although the first we heard of this charge was the court claim, I was interested to watch a video on youtube by a barrister called Daniel Barnett who suggested that if you think the charge is invalid you could throw it in the bin. I wonder how that goes when a company suggests that they sent several letters as part of their evidence against a defendant?

Coupon-mad

This is all normal template stuff.

Forget what PEye are saying about amending your defence. You are not amending your defence.

Forget a Youtube video from 14 years ago.

It is legal to send ANPR PCNs by post.

Just email what I said.

Use the words I advised.  Short & sweet.  Proposing we 'drop hands and walk away' which has value to PEye to keep the pub happier and cling on to their contract.

Attach the email from the pub and if you have a Blue Badge, a pic of that too (but with the ref number and your photo covered, as you'd never give anyone s full copy of that).

private_detective

Coupon-mad said:

This is all normal template stuff.

Forget what PEye are saying about amending your defence. You are not amending your defence.

Forget a Youtube video from 14 years ago.

It is legal to send ANPR PCNs by post.

Just email what I said.

Use the words I advised.  Short & sweet.  Proposing we 'drop hands and walk away' which has value to PEye to keep the pub happier and cling on to their contract.

Attach the email from the pub and if you have a Blue Badge, a pic of that too (but with the ref number and your photo covered, as you'd never give anyone s full copy of that).

Thanks, ill give it a go. Although they seem to have decided to proceed to court after my last email, which was after they wouldve had the evidence where i stated that the pub manger is fed up with it affecting their business. So i wouldve thought if they would make a decision based on the 'value of their contract' with the pub, they would have done so at my previous email contact with them?

Coupon-mad

No, they haven't decided anything.  Send them the two pieces of evidence & use the term 'drop hands'.

private_detective

today i received the court papers. - N149A
Notice to proposed allocation to the small claims track. date of the document is 12th., some 4 days ago. 
- this is now a defended claim
must complete questionnaire -N180- and file it at Northampton and serve a copy to the claimant by 29th april - 13 days time. 

There is only one form N180 so presumably im supposed to complete it photocopy it and send it. Not to worry as all homes are furnished with an office photocopier! 

There is an information leaflet ex730 included: would you like to settle without going to court? 
- its 3 pages long and looks like the court photocopier chewed it up and spat it out. I wouldve thought a legal document should be perfectly presented?  

no way would i be able to get legal advice within 13 days on filling out the N180. 
not that i have the time or health right now. 

questions are (edited slightly for brevity)
a1 do  you agree to small claims mediation.  
(i dont know, im not legally trained) 

c1 do you agree that the small claims is the right track? if no what track? 
(i have no idea!)

d1 do you consider this is suitable for determination without a hearing.
(i dont know, im not legally trained - however, i was a customer at the pub and so cannot see why they are pursuing this!) 

e1 at which county court wouldf you like the hearing. 
(dont know. im struggling with health and time and have several financial issues that im trying to sort out as after a review, my PIP was stopped and im awaiting a mandatory reconsideration. Im also in a fight with tax credits becuase im self employed with a very low income dur to my health after medical discharge from the military and my war pension is a joke -  as well as needing to apply for universal credit after being told to do so with tax credits.)

 e2 are you asking to use written expert evidence?


e3 how many witnesses will give evidence on your behalf.
(well my wife might although we would have a problem as three of our children are home-schooled, 2 of them because of disability. The main witness would be the pub manager, but i cant see that they would take the time out to attend court for a customer!)

e4 are there any day in the next 6 month when an expert or witness will not be available?
(no idea what the manager is up to . its hard to get hold of them at all, let alone organise them to agree to be a witness and return the papers back with 13 days.)
will you need an interpreter?
(i need one now to interpret this requirement!)

e5 do you beleive any witness are vulnerable? 

signature. 

so no option to provide more evidence such as the receipt as supplied by the manager.


so what do i do now? 


cheers


 

nopcns

Just download an N180 from here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65200dcf244f8e000d8e7183/N180_1023.pdf

and you can fill it in online and save it as a PDF and then send it in a single email to both the CNBC and the claimant/solicitor.

Not a single tree will have been harmed and you won't have wasted any electrons by trying to photocopy anything!

Have you read the Newbies/FAQ thread and are you following the 12 point checklist that is in the first post of the Template defence thread?

A1 - No
C1 - Yes
D1 - No
E1 - https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/services/search-by-postcode
E2 - No
E3 - 1
E4 - only would know that. Just block off any dates within the next 6 months you know you are going to be away (holiday, work, etc) and pad with a couple of days either side.
E5 - pretty obvious answer.

Umkomaas

no way would i be able to get legal advice within 13 days on filling out the N180.

The NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post, provides that advice, question-by-question, with pictures. No need for any legal advice on filling the form in. Return it via email to the CNBC (address in the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post,) and to the PPC by the same method. Scan/photo it and attach. 

KeithP

I thought about responding but your totally out of place attitude led me to reconsider.

You could ignore it all and face the enhanced bill from the Claimant when it arrives.

I will just say that the option to provide evidence comes later - after a case is assigned to a hearing court. But you already know that as @Coupon-mad mentioned it on 11 April at 8:58PM.