Being a non-dependent & non-dependent charges?.

Mediamonarch

Hi, things have been escalating around here and I would like some advice. In particular to being a non-dependent.

I am 23 and I live in a council house with my mum. Recently a housing officer/landlord has been showing up to assess the house but this has also caused a landslide of other things.

My mum has been on PIP/disability for as long as I’ve known and I have been supporting her both financially and physically.

All of a sudden my mum gets a phone call for a review and it turns out she is no longer eligible for PIP based on a “points” system over the phone and everything is spiralling downward.

The housing officer/landlord emailed me in regard to being a non-dependent and they want me to sign up to a direct debit paying weekly.

I am self-employed, working from home and use my bedroom as my office.

The way I interpreted this over email is that a non-dependent charge was being taken out of my mum's housing benefits. Initially, I was under the impression that this housing officer/landlord wanted me to contribute the amount for the non-dependent charge that was being deducted from my mum's housing benefits to make sure that my mum doesn’t struggle and she is able to keep paying rent which I was more than happy to do but when I asked what they meant they insisted that I am the one who should be paying this directly via direct debit.

The thing is, I don’t understand it and when I asked for more information or links to a website they insisted I should view their housing association website and navigate it myself to any reference to non-dependent charges but I can’t find anything on there about it.

I tried to find some information online and I found something about the correlation between PIP and non-dependent charges and that a non-dependent charge should not be made if the person is on PIP (I don’t know if that is referring to myself or the primary rent payer which is my mum if it is my mum then am I right in saying no non-dependent charges should be made if she is made eligible for PIP again? and is this why this housing officer/landlord hasn’t tried to notify me in the past because my mum was on PIP?.)

Of course, I want to help my mum and I am willing to pay this via direct debit although it is a struggle as my self-employed status means that my money is extremely variable, but I can’t find any reference online about the non-dependent paying directly or paying via direct debit? I can only find information on other websites like “If the non-dependent does not contribute you may find yourself in financial trouble” which I interpreted as the non-dependent giving money to the main rent-payer which is how I interpreted it in first place but this housing officer/landlord is saying that this is incorrect and I am to pay?

Sorry if this comes off a bit like a rant it’s just that I feel a bit lost and left in the dark and they don’t seem willing to give me much information about what I am paying, why and who to and I have nobody to talk to about this except the housing officer/landlord but they are not being very informative and perhaps intentionally distant.

Alice_Holt

First thing to do, I suggest, is to consider an appeal against the decision to take away your mum's PIP award.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/mandatory-reconsideration-pip/
See if she can get help from her local advice charity.
The decision letter sets out her appeal rights. Be aware that the absolute time limit is 13 months (with good reason for lateness)


When she was receiving PIP the non-dependent charge did not apply.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/benefits/housing_benefit_deductions_when_living_with_non_dependants#:~:text=A non dependant deduction means,contribute something towards your rent.

If the tenancy is in your mum's name, then she is responsible for paying the rent.
Are you named on the tenancy?  I'm assuming it's not a joint tenancy..
The financial help she gets for this (is she in receipt of UC or HB?) will reduce by a non-dependent deduction.
So, to help ensure that you both can stay in the HA property, you need now to contribute towards the rent. Else it all falls on your mum just when her income has reduced.

I don't know why the HA are telling you that you have to do a DD if their tenant is your mum. If the person with liability to pay the rent is your mum, then a DD to the HA direct from you is likely to cause confusion and may not be correctly logged against her rent liability. You should be giving the money to your mum to help her settle the rent in full. 
I'd ask the HA to supply a written explanation of why they have requested a DD to them from you, signed by a manager.  

The amount of the deduction (from her HB) will vary depending on your weekly income, so be sure that the LA HB office is given details of your income so the correct deduction can be applied. If they haven't got this information then they will assume the highest deduction rate applies.

If your mum is receiving UC, then a flat rate of deduction applies:
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/benefits/universal_credit/deductions_from_universal_credit_for_non-dependants

Mediamonarch

Alice_Holt said:

First thing to do, I suggest, is to consider an appeal against the decision to take away your mum's PIP award.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/mandatory-reconsideration-pip/
See if she can get help from her local advice charity.
The decision letter sets out her appeal rights. Be aware that the absolute time limit is 13 months (with good reason for lateness)


When she was receiving PIP the non-dependent charge did not apply.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/benefits/housing_benefit_deductions_when_living_with_non_dependants#:~:text=A non dependant deduction means,contribute something towards your rent.

If the tenancy is in your mum's name, then she is responsible for paying the rent.
Are you named on the tenancy?  I'm assuming it's not a joint tenancy..
The financial help she gets for this (is she in receipt of UC or HB?) will reduce by a non-dependent deduction.
So, to help ensure that you both can stay in the HA property, you need now to contribute towards the rent. Else it all falls on your mum just when her income has reduced.

I don't know why the HA are telling you that you have to do a DD if their tenant is your mum. If the person with liability to pay the rent is your mum, then a DD to the HA direct from you is likely to cause confusion and may not be correctly logged against her rent liability. You should be giving the money to your mum to help her settle the rent in full. 
I'd ask the HA to supply a written explanation of why they have requested a DD to them from you, signed by a manager.  

The amount of the deduction (from her HB) will vary depending on your weekly income, so be sure that the LA HB office is given details of your income so the correct deduction can be applied. If they haven't got this information then they will assume the highest deduction rate applies.

If your mum is receiving UC, then a flat rate of deduction applies:
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/benefits/universal_credit/deductions_from_universal_credit_for_non-dependants

Thank you for your message. 

Yes, I have advised her to appeal as much as she can she requested that she be sent a letter with confirmation that her PIP is being taken away (which they say will take about a week) and then she is going to take that to Citizens Advice where they should be able to help as she does go there for a look of good advice. 

It is a strange coincidence that her PIP is suddenly being taken away after this rent officer first started arriving, call me paranoid but I think there could be a correlation between those events (they could have said or done something to call on a reviewal for my mums PIP as she has been on that for many, many years. It's possible that they just wanted to start collecting the non-dependent or at least that's how it feels to me).

Tenancy is my mum's name and she is solely responsible for paying rent. I am not named on the tenancy and it is not a joint tenancy. 

She is in receipt of housing benefits but I don't think universal credit I am not sure but yes I think her housing benefits were reduced due to the non-dependent charge. 

This rent officer initially emailed me saying they had been trying to get hold of me on the phone and also wanted me to see her at the job seekers centre to talk. I replied to her basically saying how it was best to get in touch with me via email so I could refer back to things that were being said (and that I had everything on record of what was being said). I am not so much concerned about me more so my mum as they seem to be coming down on absolutely everything and I want as much written content as possible. 


EMAIL FROM THEM:

"Thanks for replying. The reduction is the non-dependant charge, i.e. another working age adult in the household, who must contribute due to the housing benefits rules reducing the Housing Benefit paid to your mothers rent account. You can pay it online, via MyAccount or telephone banking – see several way to pay below:

 

We have several ways to make paying your rent as easy as possible:

Direct Debit

Direct debit is a cost effective and trouble free way of paying rent from your bank account. You can now pay on any day of the month, making rent payments more convenient for you.

My Account App

You can pay your rent anytime and anywhere via our app.

24 Hour Automated Payment Line

Have your 10 digit rent/garage reference number and a debit/credit card available then call our 24 hour automated payment line

If you need to speak to someone you can contact us during office hours.

Rent Payment Card

You can pay with cash, debit card or cheque at any Payzone or post office using your rent payment card.

If you want to pay at a Payzone or the Post Office but don’t have or lost your rent payment card card call contact us and we can order you a new one.

Benefits & Universal Credit

If you need any help, support or advice contact our Rent Support Team.

I have attached a DD form and an Authority to Act, so you can correspond with us on your mother behalf. She will need to sign it.  If you haven’t got any printing facilities, I can send a hard copy for you.  I can also send an Adobe sign DD form direct to your email address.  Keep a look out for any letters that come from Housing Benefit, the Rent increases on 1st April, so the non dep charge will no doubt increase. You can check that in MyAccount.  The tenancy reference is  : **********"


EMAIL FROM ME:

"Hi *****, thank you for the follow-up. 

There are still some things that I am unclear on so if you could help to clarify or send me some relevant links then that would be great as I don't feel comfortable setting up a direct debit for something that I don't fully understand. 

Is the non-dependant reduction/charge on my mother's housing benefits not already going to ***** Housing Trust?, If this is the case, why would I then set up a direct debit with ***** Housing Trust for the same amount that is already being charged from my mothers benefits?. Would that not mean that they would then be receiving the same amount twice?. Even if those charges aren't going to the same place, why would there be two separate non-dependent charges one coming out of my mothers benefits and one coming out of my direct debit? Why would it not be a case of giving my mother the money directly to make up for the non-dependent charges/reductions to her housing benefits? If I have interpreted this wrong, please let me know. 

If you could help to clarify some details in writing and/or provide some relevant links to where I can gain more insight, I would be more than happy to take a look."


LAST EMAIL FROM THEM RECEIVED TODAY:

"We get your mums HB, less the non dep charge, that is for the non-dependant to pay, hence the shortfall we don’t receive it, neither does your mum. You can check on the council’s webpage for further info re Housing benefit and how it is all worked out"

I looked on their website and could not find much only generic information I already saw, nothing about paying or direct debits or money owed by the non-dependent.

I would gladly pay my mum the money that is taken from her housing benefits but I am scared they I owe money to them now instead because they are saying I owe THEM this much a week and giving me a tenancy reference number and it is making me feel anxious because I don't want them to chase me up or I don't want to be in debt or trouble with anyone and I certainly don't want anything to come down on my mum because enough is already. 

marcia_

 If you are not named on the tenancy you are not liable to pay anything.
 Your mum will be getting less housing benefit but topping that up to pay the full rent is her responsibility,

Mediamonarch

marcia_ said:

 If you are not named on the tenancy you are not liable to pay anything.
 Your mum will be getting less housing benefit but topping that up to pay the full rent is her responsibility,

Yeah, that makes sense to me and how I felt about it originally I can't see why I can't just pay my mum when she is struggling if I wanted to. I am just worried that they are coming for me. I feel as though this situation isn't right (them coming for me to set up direct-debits) I am really worried about me owing them money or them taking it further with me I just hate the thought. Not sure what I should be doing next, ignoring it until they message me again? request a written letter and explanation from a manager as Alice said? Perhaps I will do that if they get in touch with me again and I'll leave it for now.

Jyana

Has your mother asked or indicated to them that she is having trouble  understanding how her benefits or rent work at all? I'm just wondering if they have suggested that you take on the responsibility for it and that's why they are emailing you about it and have suggested the direct debit, etc. 

The reason being, they have included the Authority to Act form for your mum to sign in their email to you. That basically would give you authority even though the tenancy stays in her name.

sheramber

I have attached a DD form and an Authority to Act, so you can correspond with us on your mother behalf. She will need to sign it

That states the DD is for your mother to set up payment of the amount due. 

Also, You need to supply authority from your mother to act on her behalf - the Authority to Act referred to.

They are corresponding with you , on behalf of your mother. 

They  suggest your mother pays the amount due by DD s the easiest way to pay. 

Alice_Holt

Re  "We get your mums HB, less the non dep charge, that is for the non-dependant to pay, hence the shortfall we don’t receive it, neither does your mum..."   and

"I have attached a DD form and an Authority to Act, so you can correspond with us on your mother behalf. She will need to sign it"


  Normally HB is paid to the tenant, who then pays the landlord the total rent due.

 In some circumstances, where the tenant is considered to be vulnerable, or has difficulty managing their affairs HB can be paid directly to the landlord (to reduce the likelihood of arrears / eviction).

From the wording of their email - the latter seems to be the case.   

Given this, I think you need to work with the HO and help your mum set up a regular SO or DD for the non-dependant deduction, transfer her the money to cover this new payment to the LL, and help her check her statements to ensure it goes through.

What you both need to avoid is getting into arrears and facing eviction from your home.  The HO suggestion that you pay them directly is, I suppose, one method of avoiding this outcome, even though you have no direct legal liability to do this, and would not be responsible for any arrears. 

Mediamonarch

Jyana said:

Has your mother asked or indicated to them that she is having trouble  understanding how her benefits or rent work at all? I'm just wondering if they have suggested that you take on the responsibility for it and that's why they are emailing you about it and have suggested the direct debit, etc. 

The reason being, they have included the Authority to Act form for your mum to sign in their email to you. That basically would give you authority even though the tenancy stays in her name.

No, she definitely understands how her rents and benefits work. She has a mental illness but not to the extent of not being able to understand what her rents and benefits are as she has never needed support with either of those things since living here (2002) so I don't know why they want me to act on this situation the only reason I can think of is that I am working (self-employed) and my mum isn't and has been rejected from PIP very recently so I suppose they are wondering how my mum is going to pay and thats why they might have decided to this perhaps but I really don't feel comfortable with this entire situation I would much rather give my mum money directly if she needed it and I don't see a reason why I can't do that but they seem to be adamant that I am the one responsible for paying my own non-dominent fees directly to them. Am I still responsible if I don't sign the Authority to Act form? "who must contribute due to the housing benefits rules reducing the Housing Benefit", are they saying legally I have to contribute directly to them even if I don't sign the Authority to Act?.

Mediamonarch

sheramber said:

I have attached a DD form and an Authority to Act, so you can correspond with us on your mother behalf. She will need to sign it

That states the DD is for your mother to set up payment of the amount due. 

Also, You need to supply authority from your mother to act on her behalf - the Authority to Act referred to.

They are corresponding with you , on behalf of your mother. 

They  suggest your mother pays the amount due by DD s the easiest way to pay. 

In the first email from them I received this as part of the message.

"I need to give you a call regarding the non-dependant charge on your mums rent, she’s not getting full benefit again, so unfortunately, you’ll have to start paying the shortfall"

They have never mentioned to my mum about paying a direct debit not once, only me and I find it strange but perhaps they reviewed her financial situation and considered that she is unable to I don't know but they should have at least brought it up to her so we both know what's going on. 

kimwp

It sounds to me like they have made an assumption that as your mother's housing benefit gets paid directly to them that she can't manage her finances. If you and she are confident she can, then she (with your help if necessary) can set up a direct debit/standing order from her account and just tell them that's what you are doing. 

I'm not making a statement about whether it should be paid or shouldn't be owed because she should get pip, just making the observation that it sounds like they've made some assumptions that you can just override.