Cardiff Marina - New Generation Parking Management

SLang1214

Coupon-mad said:

I don't understand. @nopcns gave you the appeal wording & you've quoted it.

Sorry, I meant in addition to the text from @nopcns.

Should my appeal text just constitute the above text, with no mention of anything else?

Umkomaas

SLang1214 said:

Umkomaas said:

NtK Images

https://ibb.co/sK2ng81

https://ibb.co/MZzjc9w

Misleading assertion that they have rights to recover from the keeper. While PoFA isn't mentioned, the phrasing is suggestive of it - and PoFA is the only mechanism for passing liability from the driver to the keeper. 

If the harbour is covered by byelaws (check please), then you should complain to the DVLA about the misrepresentation. It might also be worth a crack at an IAS appeal - see how they worm their way around byelaws 

Thanks for this. How can I check if the marina/harbour is covered by byelaws?

How about some internet research?  Google?  Phone the harbour and ask!  Get a copy by whatever means. Read them. 

nopcns

You start your appeal on their website with the preamble I gave you and then add:

NGPM cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, NGPM will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Cardiff Marina is not 'relevant land'.

If Cardiff Harbour wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Harbour Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because NGPM is not the marina owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for NGPM's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and NGPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NTK can only hold the driver liable. NGPM have no hope should you attempt to take this matter to court, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Mikeh2001

I live in the area so was curious about the "harbour".

The map in the byelaws doc is quite ambiguous but appears to cover nearly all water ways, with only a handful of sections covering land.  In the area in question there are no indentations that suggests the byelaws cover the car park mentioned.

It does say however its applies to "“Quay” means ... pier, bridge,roadway or footway adjacent and affording access thereto"

I also found this: https://www.cardiffharbour.com/wp-content/uploads/Map-FINAL-1.jpg

Its a bit more interesting as it suggests the white water rafting centre is owned by the owned by the council (i.e. excempt land).  It has red shape in the area of the around and very close to this carpark but its hard to be sure what this means.

Bottom line - I think you need to ask the council / harbour authority who owns what land. Failing that you might get some joy with land registry.  My hunch is that now private land but that doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be covered by the bylaws.  Hope it helps!

Le_Kirk

nopcns said:

"I am unequivocally appealing this Parking Charge Notice (PCN) solely as the registered keeper of the vehicle, definitely NOT as the driver. However, due to the deliberate restriction of the online appeal system provided by NGPM, there being no option but to tick a box indicating that I am appealing as the driver in order to progress through the appeals process can only be considered as a deliberate attempt to coercively entrap the keeper of the vehicle. This is considered to be a deliberate deceit and, should NGPM try and progress this PCN, I will use this obvious deception to show the court that NGPMs behaviour is both vexatious and unreasonable.

The action of ticking the box stating that the appellant is the driver is taken under protest and does not constitute any admission of liability nor a waive my right to appeal solely as the registered keeper as addressed in the PCN. NGPM know full well that, as the keeper, I am not under any legal obligation to disclose the driver's identity. I demand a fair and transparent appeals process that respects my legal position as the registered keeper and allows me to contest the PCN without coercion or deceit."

Maybe better without the "a"

SLang1214

nopcns said:

You start your appeal on their website with the preamble I gave you and then add:

NGPM cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, NGPM will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Cardiff Marina is not 'relevant land'.

If Cardiff Harbour wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Harbour Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because NGPM is not the marina owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for NGPM's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and NGPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NTK can only hold the driver liable. NGPM have no hope should you attempt to take this matter to court, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Thank you very much for this. I truly appreciate it. 

Based on this, my fundamental argument if this does go to court is the same technicality mentioned right? Nothing about the situation that led to the event taking place?

Mikeh2001

SLang1214 said:

nopcns said:

You start your appeal on their website with the preamble I gave you and then add:

NGPM cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, NGPM will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Cardiff Marina is not 'relevant land'.

If Cardiff Harbour wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Harbour Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because NGPM is not the marina owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for NGPM's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and NGPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NTK can only hold the driver liable. NGPM have no hope should you attempt to take this matter to court, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Thank you very much for this. I truly appreciate it. 

Based on this, my fundamental argument if this does go to court is the same technicality mentioned right? Nothing about the situation that led to the event taking place?

Did you confirm that the land is actually under "statutory control"? The information I found (albeit in a few minutes via Google) appeared inconclusive.

SLang1214

Mikeh2001 said:

I live in the area so was curious about the "harbour".

The map in the byelaws doc is quite ambiguous but appears to cover nearly all water ways, with only a handful of sections covering land.  In the area in question there are no indentations that suggests the byelaws cover the car park mentioned.

It does say however its applies to "“Quay” means ... pier, bridge,roadway or footway adjacent and affording access thereto"

I also found this: https://www.cardiffharbour.com/wp-content/uploads/Map-FINAL-1.jpg

Its a bit more interesting as it suggests the white water rafting centre is owned by the owned by the council (i.e. excempt land).  It has red shape in the area of the around and very close to this carpark but its hard to be sure what this means.

Bottom line - I think you need to ask the council / harbour authority who owns what land. Failing that you might get some joy with land registry.  My hunch is that now private land but that doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be covered by the bylaws.  Hope it helps!

Thanks for this. I now better understand what byelaws are. Didn't even know before all this about relevant land and about harbours typically having byelaws.

Did you confirm that the land is actually under "statutory control"? The information I found (albeit in a few minutes via Google) appeared inconclusive.

I will try and confirm by asking around. 

SLang1214

Mikeh2001 said:

Did you confirm that the land is actually under "statutory control"? The information I found (albeit in a few minutes via Google) appeared inconclusive.

Just come off the phone with the Cardiff Marina office. According to them, the land for parking is private land and wouldn't come under the byelaws. I didn't I expect them to say any different to be honest. 

I also called the Cardiff Harbour Authority and they asked me to send over an email showing the land in question and they said they'd forward it to someone who might be able to confirm. On my email to them, I did highlight the definition of quay and how it says that a quay can include any pier, bridge,roadway or footway adjacent and affording access thereto. I'll confirm once I hear back.

The below is a google maps view of the land adjacent to the marina.

https://ibb.co/hF657Nv

The red boxes show the actual car park land. The yellow arrows show the entrance from the road and then the 'entrance' to the two bits of car parking area. The yellow cross is the location of the payment machine. The black cross is the access point to the marina itself. 

The footpath running in between the two bits of car parking area is connected to the marina access and the car park. 

If after all these enquirers it comes out that this particular piece of land is not covered by the byelaws, would it change the first appeal text (kindly put together by @nopcns) and would I have any other technicality to bother going all the way to courts (if it goes that far)?

Coupon-mad

Nothing has changed re the advice already given, and of course you'd bother if it went to court.

New Generation Parking Management are a cinch to beat (as long as you avoided Cardiff court, but cross that bridge later).