What is This? (Feature in auction property)

RHemmings

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

user1977 said:

You thunk wrong. Exchange is on the fall of the gavel. Completion is generally a few weeks later.

Thanks. I got confused there. Of course completion doesn't happen before funds are transferred to the seller, and on auction day only the 10% deposit is.

Reading through reviews, it seems to be quite common among negative reviews for buyers to complain that the process becomes long and completion fails. I don't know in what percentage of cases overall there are such problems.

Reading through the buyers' FAQ, it seems that only overseas buyers need to provide the buyer's fees, plus 10% of their maximum bid before auction day. (So, I was wrong again further upthread.) However, online bidders have to pay the minimum deposit of £5000 plus buying fees of £1920 before bidding. 

I don't really see what buyers are complaining about. By winning the auction, they have already exchanged contracts. So, all that's needed is for the buyer to pay the money and the seller to sign the TR1. 

"There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date."

Two weeks is plenty of time. What work should the seller's solicitor be doing?  I suspect that the disgruntled buyers didn't understand the auction process properly. 

I didn't store that review or anything. If I remember correctly (never guaranteed), there was a general comment about information that the buyer's solicitor needed before being ready to complete not being received from the seller's solicitor. 

I'm still looking into this auction house and the nature of their auctions. There are quite a few items in the FAQ, but these often refer to, e.g, special conditions in the contract of sale which aren't detailed in the FAQ.

It's clear that some buyers haven't read all of the contract of sale. I've only looked at a few of them so far, but a major complaint by buyers is high fees and costs which they claim are 'hidden in the small print'. I'm not saying that it isn't buyers' fault if they don't read the small print, but the costs could definitely be more up-front /clearer. 

The property I'm using as a bellwether to see how things go is 103 Anstey Lane. While the total costs of buying aren't as high as some of the 1* reviews are describing, there is still fee after fee, and it adds up. I don't think this is clear from the FAQ which talks about the buying  fee of £1600 + VAT, and deposit, but there are a lot of other fees. E.g. on completion, the buyer pays another £1000 or so to the auction house, who have already received £1600. There are multiple costs to be paid to the seller's solicitor, and so on. These costs can change, and I noted that the current addendums for the next auction mentioned changes in costs. In particular charges by councils (for what - I haven't looked up yet.) It's also possible that changes to the costs and other details might be announced by the auctioneer on the day. 

As an example, here's an example of the so-called 'fine print'. 



One thing I noted in buyer reviews is that the seller sometimes turns out to be someone different from the owner listed on the title register. This can easily happen in terms of flipped properties as the Land Registry can take quite some time to change the names on title deeds. But, the contracts of sale for Bond Wolfe didn't list the seller's names for the ones that I looked at. I can't see why they wouldn't. One review I saw said that they wouldn't have bought if they were aware that they were buying from a property company, not the individuals listed on the title deeds.

As I'm generally interested in traditional auctions (but I'm not quite in a position to be ready to or need to try and buy this way), I read a number of pages that tell you what you need to know to buy by traditional auction. Personally I think they were all inadequate, and they didn't give enough details. The ones that gave estimates of price were an order of magnitude cheaper than what the costs will be for a buyer at a Bond Wolfe auction. At least, the ones that I've seen. I don't consider myself 'ready' to buy at auction yet, but I feel I'm already ahead of the light and incomplete advice in pages such as those. 

user1977

RHemmings said:

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

user1977 said:

You thunk wrong. Exchange is on the fall of the gavel. Completion is generally a few weeks later.

Thanks. I got confused there. Of course completion doesn't happen before funds are transferred to the seller, and on auction day only the 10% deposit is.

Reading through reviews, it seems to be quite common among negative reviews for buyers to complain that the process becomes long and completion fails. I don't know in what percentage of cases overall there are such problems.

Reading through the buyers' FAQ, it seems that only overseas buyers need to provide the buyer's fees, plus 10% of their maximum bid before auction day. (So, I was wrong again further upthread.) However, online bidders have to pay the minimum deposit of £5000 plus buying fees of £1920 before bidding. 

I don't really see what buyers are complaining about. By winning the auction, they have already exchanged contracts. So, all that's needed is for the buyer to pay the money and the seller to sign the TR1. 

"There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date."

Two weeks is plenty of time. What work should the seller's solicitor be doing?  I suspect that the disgruntled buyers didn't understand the auction process properly. 

One thing I noted in buyer reviews is that the seller sometimes turns out to be someone different from the owner listed on the title register. This can easily happen in terms of flipped properties as the Land Registry can take quite some time to change the names on title deeds. But, the contracts of sale for Bond Wolfe didn't list the seller's names for the ones that I looked at. I can't see why they wouldn't. One review I saw said that they wouldn't have bought if they were aware that they were buying from a property company, not the individuals listed on the title deeds.

Utterly normal for "back to back" sales at auction to be done this way (and the initial transfer isn't merely awaiting registration, it isn't submitted at all in its own right). This isn't specific to Bond Wolfe at all.

GDB2222

RHemmings said:

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

user1977 said:

You thunk wrong. Exchange is on the fall of the gavel. Completion is generally a few weeks later.

Thanks. I got confused there. Of course completion doesn't happen before funds are transferred to the seller, and on auction day only the 10% deposit is.

Reading through reviews, it seems to be quite common among negative reviews for buyers to complain that the process becomes long and completion fails. I don't know in what percentage of cases overall there are such problems.

Reading through the buyers' FAQ, it seems that only overseas buyers need to provide the buyer's fees, plus 10% of their maximum bid before auction day. (So, I was wrong again further upthread.) However, online bidders have to pay the minimum deposit of £5000 plus buying fees of £1920 before bidding. 

I don't really see what buyers are complaining about. By winning the auction, they have already exchanged contracts. So, all that's needed is for the buyer to pay the money and the seller to sign the TR1. 

"There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date."

Two weeks is plenty of time. What work should the seller's solicitor be doing?  I suspect that the disgruntled buyers didn't understand the auction process properly. 

I didn't store that review or anything. If I remember correctly (never guaranteed), there was a general comment about information that the buyer's solicitor needed before being ready to complete not being received from the seller's solicitor. 

I'm still looking into this auction house and the nature of their auctions. There are quite a few items in the FAQ, but these often refer to, e.g, special conditions in the contract of sale which aren't detailed in the FAQ.

It's clear that some buyers haven't read all of the contract of sale. I've only looked at a few of them so far, but a major complaint by buyers is high fees and costs which they claim are 'hidden in the small print'. I'm not saying that it isn't buyers' fault if they don't read the small print, but the costs could definitely be more up-front /clearer. 

The property I'm using as a bellwether to see how things go is 103 Anstey Lane. While the total costs of buying aren't as high as some of the 1* reviews are describing, there is still fee after fee, and it adds up. I don't think this is clear from the FAQ which talks about the buying  fee of £1600 + VAT, and deposit, but there are a lot of other fees. E.g. on completion, the buyer pays another £1000 or so to the auction house, who have already received £1600. There are multiple costs to be paid to the seller's solicitor, and so on. These costs can change, and I noted that the current addendums for the next auction mentioned changes in costs. In particular charges by councils (for what - I haven't looked up yet.) It's also possible that changes to the costs and other details might be announced by the auctioneer on the day. 

As an example, here's an example of the so-called 'fine print'. 



One thing I noted in buyer reviews is that the seller sometimes turns out to be someone different from the owner listed on the title register. This can easily happen in terms of flipped properties as the Land Registry can take quite some time to change the names on title deeds. But, the contracts of sale for Bond Wolfe didn't list the seller's names for the ones that I looked at. I can't see why they wouldn't. One review I saw said that they wouldn't have bought if they were aware that they were buying from a property company, not the individuals listed on the title deeds.

As I'm generally interested in traditional auctions (but I'm not quite in a position to be ready to or need to try and buy this way), I read a number of pages that tell you what you need to know to buy by traditional auction. Personally I think they were all inadequate, and they didn't give enough details. The ones that gave estimates of price were an order of magnitude cheaper than what the costs will be for a buyer at a Bond Wolfe auction. At least, the ones that I've seen. I don't consider myself 'ready' to buy at auction yet, but I feel I'm already ahead of the light and incomplete advice in pages such as those. 

I haven't bought at auction recently, but my impression from looking at occasional lots is that nowadays a lot of sellers are getting their buyers to pay the seller's auction fees and solicitor's fees.

Anyone buying at auction either needs to be pretty expert themselves and go through all the auction documents themselves, or they need to employ a solicitor to go through all the auction documents for them. All this needs to be done before bidding. Consequently, none of the fees you mentioned above should come as a surprise to anyone bidding.

Para 46, that you copied (above) is actually part of the standard conditions of sale and applies to normal property sales, not just auctions. 

Allsops is one of the leading auctioneers in the country, and I suggest that you look at a few of their lots (especially the legal packs) to get an idea of what is normal these days.

RHemmings

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

GDB2222 said:

RHemmings said:

user1977 said:

You thunk wrong. Exchange is on the fall of the gavel. Completion is generally a few weeks later.

Thanks. I got confused there. Of course completion doesn't happen before funds are transferred to the seller, and on auction day only the 10% deposit is.

Reading through reviews, it seems to be quite common among negative reviews for buyers to complain that the process becomes long and completion fails. I don't know in what percentage of cases overall there are such problems.

Reading through the buyers' FAQ, it seems that only overseas buyers need to provide the buyer's fees, plus 10% of their maximum bid before auction day. (So, I was wrong again further upthread.) However, online bidders have to pay the minimum deposit of £5000 plus buying fees of £1920 before bidding. 

I don't really see what buyers are complaining about. By winning the auction, they have already exchanged contracts. So, all that's needed is for the buyer to pay the money and the seller to sign the TR1. 

"There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date."

Two weeks is plenty of time. What work should the seller's solicitor be doing?  I suspect that the disgruntled buyers didn't understand the auction process properly. 

I didn't store that review or anything. If I remember correctly (never guaranteed), there was a general comment about information that the buyer's solicitor needed before being ready to complete not being received from the seller's solicitor. 

I'm still looking into this auction house and the nature of their auctions. There are quite a few items in the FAQ, but these often refer to, e.g, special conditions in the contract of sale which aren't detailed in the FAQ.

It's clear that some buyers haven't read all of the contract of sale. I've only looked at a few of them so far, but a major complaint by buyers is high fees and costs which they claim are 'hidden in the small print'. I'm not saying that it isn't buyers' fault if they don't read the small print, but the costs could definitely be more up-front /clearer. 

The property I'm using as a bellwether to see how things go is 103 Anstey Lane. While the total costs of buying aren't as high as some of the 1* reviews are describing, there is still fee after fee, and it adds up. I don't think this is clear from the FAQ which talks about the buying  fee of £1600 + VAT, and deposit, but there are a lot of other fees. E.g. on completion, the buyer pays another £1000 or so to the auction house, who have already received £1600. There are multiple costs to be paid to the seller's solicitor, and so on. These costs can change, and I noted that the current addendums for the next auction mentioned changes in costs. In particular charges by councils (for what - I haven't looked up yet.) It's also possible that changes to the costs and other details might be announced by the auctioneer on the day. 

As an example, here's an example of the so-called 'fine print'. 



One thing I noted in buyer reviews is that the seller sometimes turns out to be someone different from the owner listed on the title register. This can easily happen in terms of flipped properties as the Land Registry can take quite some time to change the names on title deeds. But, the contracts of sale for Bond Wolfe didn't list the seller's names for the ones that I looked at. I can't see why they wouldn't. One review I saw said that they wouldn't have bought if they were aware that they were buying from a property company, not the individuals listed on the title deeds.

As I'm generally interested in traditional auctions (but I'm not quite in a position to be ready to or need to try and buy this way), I read a number of pages that tell you what you need to know to buy by traditional auction. Personally I think they were all inadequate, and they didn't give enough details. The ones that gave estimates of price were an order of magnitude cheaper than what the costs will be for a buyer at a Bond Wolfe auction. At least, the ones that I've seen. I don't consider myself 'ready' to buy at auction yet, but I feel I'm already ahead of the light and incomplete advice in pages such as those. 

I haven't bought at auction recently, but my impression from looking at occasional lots is that nowadays a lot of sellers are getting their buyers to pay the seller's auction fees and solicitor's fees.

Anyone buying at auction either needs to be pretty expert themselves and go through all the auction documents themselves, or they need to employ a solicitor to go through all the auction documents for them. All this needs to be done before bidding. Consequently, none of the fees you mentioned above should come as a surprise to anyone bidding.

Para 46, that you copied (above) is actually part of the standard conditions of sale and applies to normal property sales, not just auctions. 

Allsops is one of the leading auctioneers in the country, and I suggest that you look at a few of their lots (especially the legal packs) to get an idea of what is normal these days.

Thanks. Yes, I realised that a 10% deposit on exchange is normal for all properties (once cobwebs cleared out of brain further upthread). However, I wanted to quote as much about what has to be paid as I could above.

From Allsops', following your recommendation, I chose this property as a bellwether for the auction tomorrow and the day after. 

https://www.allsop.co.uk/lot-overview/vacant-freehold-mid-terrace-house-in-leicester/r240327-323

It's an interesting one, because it's non-standard construction. I know the village of Anstey well, though it was a family decision not to move out there as without a car it's not so convenient. Great for people who have cars and have somewhere to park one.

At the moment, I'm just keeping my eye out and seeing what happens. Plenty of time to read up on things at my leisure. E.g. exactly to what extent can clauses in contracts exclude liability for pretty much anything under the sun. 

It was keeping my eye on Modern Method of Auction results that led to me buying the house I did. I saw it fail to sell with no bids twice, which led to me hatching an eventually successful plan. So, who knows what may happen...

fourmarks

RHemmings said:

What actually is this thing? This is a genuine question - I don't know what this is. 



https://www.bondwolfe.com/auctions/properties/238078-property-auction-willenhall/

Yesterday was the 80th anniversary of The Great Escape from Stalag Luft 111. So this may be Tom, Richard, or Harry!

Not sure how the Germans missed it to be honest.

LHW99

Giant footbath?

RHemmings

LHW99 said:

Giant footbath?

For a giant foot. 

DullGreyGuy

My guess is going with fish breeding but not sure why there are so many pipes going down. 

If it were a hot tub the pipes may make sense but then are you really going to have gravel around the outside of your hot tub thats in an outbuilding?

Kim_13

RHemmings said:

eddddy said:

The house also has a 'strange' sales history... It looks like this:

On 23rd November 2013 it sold for £122,500 


On 14th December 2023 it looks like it sold at auction: Guide price £20k+  Sold For: £172k
https://www.bondwolfe.com/auctions/properties/229228-property-auction-willenhall/

On 27th March 2024 it's back in the auction again: Guide price £20k+
https://www.bondwolfe.com/auctions/properties/238078-property-auction-willenhall/



Selling at the14th Dec auction and back in the 27 Mar auction suggests that the buyer might have failed to complete 
(Or somebody bought it and immediately decided to re-sell - but buying for £172k and putting it back in with a guide of £20k would be strange.)

The online reviews of Bond Wolfe are interesting. The official TrustPilot profile has good ratings and feedback, but sometimes TrustPilot official profiles are 'managed'. 

Reading other reviews, it seems that many sellers are satisifed with the sellers. Poor reviews tend to be from buyers. Some aren't familiar with the massive fees, but other report other problems. Noting that properties sell and then reappear in later auctions. There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date. Of course, claims in reviews aren't proof. 

Personally I find it concerning that the high fees mean that the auction house gets their cut on the sale of the house, and it seems to be to their advantage if the property fails to complete and then can be sold again. I've seen mention of an expensive 'seller's premium', e.g. £8000. What is that? And, who gets to keep (or share out) the 10% deposit if a property fails to complete? 

I thought that in a traditional auction the sale completes on the fall of the gavel. So, how can there be completion dates? When I said it was traditional auction upthread, it appears that I was wrong. What is this business? 

The low guide price says to me they’re not all that confident in their ability to predict what a property will sell for. Someone mentioned that their terms were that the reserve couldn’t be more than 10% over the guide, which must be a standard term in property auctions as this was also the case when my late grandmother’s property was sold in December by a different auction house. So anybody using Bond Wolfe must really need a property gone at any price, as guide+10% is clearly a lot less than they’re worth. Low guide prices mean more fees for Bonde Wolfe; they must have a 100% sold rate with this business model. Fees probably differ between auction houses, but for the auction house that sold my grandmother’s place, had it not sold on auction day, less than £1,000 would have been payable to cover the marketing (so probably not losing any money if the place doesn’t sell, but they’re not making any either.)

There are completion dates; the fall of the gavel constitutes exchange. The auctioneers indicated completion would be within 4 weeks of the auction date and asked for the vendor’s preference, to which the response had been as soon as possible, as the property was empty (the owners were being billed for 100% of the council tax at a band very likely to be wrong.) Unfortunately, while it was in writing that it would be inside 4 weeks, it was omitted from the legally binding terms, so there was nothing they could do about it when that 4 weeks turned into almost 6. It then became almost 7, though in hindsight they should have insisted on some form of compensation for agreeing to a week’s extension on the eventual given date.

The auctioneers and both solicitors were playing ping pong with the blame, and while they took the total of a week off over Christmas and New Year, that somehow added 2 weeks to the worst case date. The final week was down to the buyer not coming up with the money on time; in this case the buyer had been buying it for his son to live in, and got into a bidding war with another bidder in the closing stages of the auction, so may have gone higher than he could really afford. To bid, the auctioneers required the usual proof of identity and residency and a card on file to pay a 10% deposit (which they passed to the solicitors less their fees) and a buyer’s fee, but don’t check that the bidder is good for the amount of money they’re bidding. They charged 50% commission on any sale that failed to complete, but my understanding was that the remainder of the 10% would have been released had the sale not completed, as the buyer was at fault (with the auctioneers then having to refund 50% of the commission they had taken in advance.)

You wouldn’t be alone in assuming that the auction was the end of it - in this case the council were informed of the sale in the week or so after the auction, as the initial completion date fell 2 days after an instalment date, but no more CT should have been due as the bill had been based on 10 instalments. The council refunded from the auction date before billing again when they realised their mistake.

I suspect it won’t go for £172k again, as most bidders will be property developers and they’re bound to realise that the property was up not long ago and wonder what might be wrong with it to make a bidder forfeit their deposit. (The buyer had been allowed to book a viewing during the time between exchange and completion, so I suppose there are cases where a buyer thinks that backing out is the better option.) 

Any issues on the seller’s side would probably be found after entries close but before the auction date itself - several lots were showing as postponed when I followed the auction online on the day.

GDB2222

Kim_13 said:

RHemmings said:

eddddy said:

The house also has a 'strange' sales history... It looks like this:

On 23rd November 2013 it sold for £122,500 


On 14th December 2023 it looks like it sold at auction: Guide price £20k+  Sold For: £172k
https://www.bondwolfe.com/auctions/properties/229228-property-auction-willenhall/

On 27th March 2024 it's back in the auction again: Guide price £20k+
https://www.bondwolfe.com/auctions/properties/238078-property-auction-willenhall/



Selling at the14th Dec auction and back in the 27 Mar auction suggests that the buyer might have failed to complete 
(Or somebody bought it and immediately decided to re-sell - but buying for £172k and putting it back in with a guide of £20k would be strange.)

The online reviews of Bond Wolfe are interesting. The official TrustPilot profile has good ratings and feedback, but sometimes TrustPilot official profiles are 'managed'. 

Reading other reviews, it seems that many sellers are satisifed with the sellers. Poor reviews tend to be from buyers. Some aren't familiar with the massive fees, but other report other problems. Noting that properties sell and then reappear in later auctions. There was one report that a seller's solicitor refused to start work on the property until two weeks before the completion date. Of course, claims in reviews aren't proof. 

Personally I find it concerning that the high fees mean that the auction house gets their cut on the sale of the house, and it seems to be to their advantage if the property fails to complete and then can be sold again. I've seen mention of an expensive 'seller's premium', e.g. £8000. What is that? And, who gets to keep (or share out) the 10% deposit if a property fails to complete? 

I thought that in a traditional auction the sale completes on the fall of the gavel. So, how can there be completion dates? When I said it was traditional auction upthread, it appears that I was wrong. What is this business? 

The low guide price says to me they’re not all that confident in their ability to predict what a property will sell for. Someone mentioned that their terms were that the reserve couldn’t be more than 10% over the guide, which must be a standard term in property auctions as this was also the case when my late grandmother’s property was sold in December by a different auction house. So anybody using Bond Wolfe must really need a property gone at any price, as guide+10% is clearly a lot less than they’re worth. Low guide prices mean more fees for Bonde Wolfe; they must have a 100% sold rate with this business model. Fees probably differ between auction houses, but for the auction house that sold my grandmother’s place, had it not sold on auction day, less than £1,000 would have been payable to cover the marketing (so probably not losing any money if the place doesn’t sell, but they’re not making any either.)

There are completion dates; the fall of the gavel constitutes exchange. The auctioneers indicated completion would be within 4 weeks of the auction date and asked for the vendor’s preference, to which the response had been as soon as possible, as the property was empty (the owners were being billed for 100% of the council tax at a band very likely to be wrong.) Unfortunately, while it was in writing that it would be inside 4 weeks, it was omitted from the legally binding terms, so there was nothing they could do about it when that 4 weeks turned into almost 6. It then became almost 7, though in hindsight they should have insisted on some form of compensation for agreeing to a week’s extension on the eventual given date.

The auctioneers and both solicitors were playing ping pong with the blame, and while they took the total of a week off over Christmas and New Year, that somehow added 2 weeks to the worst case date. The final week was down to the buyer not coming up with the money on time; in this case the buyer had been buying it for his son to live in, and got into a bidding war with another bidder in the closing stages of the auction, so may have gone higher than he could really afford. To bid, the auctioneers required the usual proof of identity and residency and a card on file to pay a 10% deposit (which they passed to the solicitors less their fees) and a buyer’s fee, but don’t check that the bidder is good for the amount of money they’re bidding. They charged 50% commission on any sale that failed to complete, but my understanding was that the remainder of the 10% would have been released had the sale not completed, as the buyer was at fault (with the auctioneers then having to refund 50% of the commission they had taken in advance.)

You wouldn’t be alone in assuming that the auction was the end of it - in this case the council were informed of the sale in the week or so after the auction, as the initial completion date fell 2 days after an instalment date, but no more CT should have been due as the bill had been based on 10 instalments. The council refunded from the auction date before billing again when they realised their mistake.

I suspect it won’t go for £172k again, as most bidders will be property developers and they’re bound to realise that the property was up not long ago and wonder what might be wrong with it to make a bidder forfeit their deposit. (The buyer had been allowed to book a viewing during the time between exchange and completion, so I suppose there are cases where a buyer thinks that backing out is the better option.) 

Any issues on the seller’s side would probably be found after entries close but before the auction date itself - several lots were showing as postponed when I followed the auction online on the day.

If the new sale is more than around 10% below the £172k, the buyers are on the hook for the seller’s loss to the extent it exceeds the 10% deposit.