Did Channel 4, My5, ITV-X, Pluto and Sky News shoot themselves in the foot?

LeesArt

Neil49 said:

You are over thinking the definition of Live tv - particularly when it comes to something like Pluto. 

Take a look at this MSE page which defines what Live tv is 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/broadband-and-tv/tv-licence/#needtoknow-1

On streaming channels "Live tv" is classed as programmes on something like ITVX that are being broadcast simultaneously on ITV. That doesn't happen with something like Pluto which just streams a programme to grab your attention.

Read the content of the link before you end up with nothing to watch at all. 

I don't want to put someone vulnerable in a position where they have to argue, if they ended up in Court they would not be able to say "this website said so"  I just think that they should not have had LIVE TV in the App at all or have a version of the App that works on the Catch-Up time and the words LIVE should be removed.

When I started this it was the mainstream channels I was concerned about because with cost of living the way it is many many people are dumping the BBC, especially because they can get that content elsewhere.

Pluto shows a programme on a schedule that appears to meet the definition

" as they're being shown on telly"

It launches it immediately from the middle of the programme, if you click another programme it shows that in the middle of a programme, i.e.  "as they're being shown on telly".

Some of the biggest views on YouTube come from discussing the legality of what is LIVE TV and people like Black Belt Barrister have got formal replies from the BBC as to what they think determines a broadcaster, they think watching a live session with him is not broadcasting.   

The key issue is that one does not want to be subject to the risk, I don't think it would do any harm to the TV companies to recognise that a large part of their market is people dumping the TVL, their apps are ad funded but they deprive their advertisers of these eyes.

I have managed to find other apps that do not have any LIVE content, there is also the subscription model trials and so on.

I also think Netflix shot themselves in the foot, previously they were less than half the price of TVL, the other half could be spent on broadband and they had unique content as well as some quality BBC content.  Now their subscription is ridiculous, they try to force ads on you, they charge more depending on your screen res and their content is absolute crap.  If there is something of quality in there nobody can find it because the platform design is so poor.  They say it learns but it really doesn't, it astonishes me that these  companies really do not understand their markets and do not learn from the mistakes of their competitors, for example Sky.

oldernonethewiser

I looked at Pluto and there is a live TV section.  I don't know if it plays automatically on an app, it doesn't on the website. 

If you don't watch live TV then all is good in terms of not requiring a TV licence.

Some people do get overly worried about this sort of thing.

Lots of helpful advice online.

Cornucopia

Pluto TV is one big grey area.

For most streaming services, the TV Licence compliance is clear - if you do not watch Live TV channels, you do not need a Licence, and it DOES come down to just avoiding the live streams.

The issue with Pluto is that its "channels" are not TV broadcast channels, I don't think.   They certainly aren't UK licensed TV channels.   However, they are dressed up to appear to be live channels, and I agree that TVL might be confused by them, not least because the videos by Black Belt Barrister show them to be confused about the definition.

TVL have a certain reputation, but many of the questionable videos are quite old now.   Certainly, people shouldn't worry about TVL warrants because they are incredibly rare and they require prior suspicion of evasion that typically is quite hard for TVL to come by.   They won't be looking through windows (and certainly won't be capturing evidence that they have looked through windows) as that is outside their own rules and is borderline illegal.

Bottom line is this:  we know what the rules are (the MSE article explains it well) and TVL are (honestly) not the rogues that some of them used to be (and haven't been since cleaning up their act before the last Charter review).    OTOH, there is no need and no benefit to speaking with them at the door.  

I don't see commercial companies responding overly to the needs of people without TV Licences - both because TVL are unclear about the rules and because the commercial companies have no way to identify which/how many of their customers don't have a Licence.

flashg67

LeesArt said:

Neil_Jones said:

Those that DO want live TV can use the TV's built in facilities, 

What about people watching on laptops, tablets, phones who want the option to watch live TV? This is often me, especially recently when the OH insists on watching Big Brother on the TV.  I'm regularly relegated to my laptop to watch something else....

LeesArt

Cornucopia said:

Pluto TV is one big grey area.

For most streaming services, the TV Licence compliance is clear - if you do not watch Live TV channels, you do not need a Licence, and it DOES come down to just avoiding the live streams.

The issue with Pluto is that its "channels" are not TV broadcast channels, I don't think.   They certainly aren't UK licensed TV channels.   However, they are dressed up to appear to be live channels, and I agree that TVL might be confused by them, not least because the videos by Black Belt Barrister show them to be confused about the definition.

TVL have a certain reputation, but many of the questionable videos are quite old now.   Certainly, people shouldn't worry about TVL warrants because they are incredibly rare and they require prior suspicion of evasion that typically is quite hard for TVL to come by.   They won't be looking through windows (and certainly won't be capturing evidence that they have looked through windows) as that is outside their own rules and is borderline illegal.

Bottom line is this:  we know what the rules are (the MSE article explains it well) and TVL are (honestly) not the rogues that some of them used to be (and haven't been since cleaning up their act before the last Charter review).    OTOH, there is no need and no benefit to speaking with them at the door.  

I don't see commercial companies responding overly to the needs of people without TV Licences - both because TVL are unclear about the rules and because the commercial companies have no way to identify which/how many of their customers don't have a Licence.

Thanks that is very helpful, if it was for me I would not worry so much, but elderly are so easily fooled.

The Pluto looks like the schedule on TalkTalk it even starts halfway through a programme.

The Court cases of TVL Goons taking disabled, mentally impaired, single mothers and the Elderly are still being reported.

Cornucopia

LeesArt said:

Cornucopia said:

Pluto TV is one big grey area.

For most streaming services, the TV Licence compliance is clear - if you do not watch Live TV channels, you do not need a Licence, and it DOES come down to just avoiding the live streams.

The issue with Pluto is that its "channels" are not TV broadcast channels, I don't think.   They certainly aren't UK licensed TV channels.   However, they are dressed up to appear to be live channels, and I agree that TVL might be confused by them, not least because the videos by Black Belt Barrister show them to be confused about the definition.

TVL have a certain reputation, but many of the questionable videos are quite old now.   Certainly, people shouldn't worry about TVL warrants because they are incredibly rare and they require prior suspicion of evasion that typically is quite hard for TVL to come by.   They won't be looking through windows (and certainly won't be capturing evidence that they have looked through windows) as that is outside their own rules and is borderline illegal.

Bottom line is this:  we know what the rules are (the MSE article explains it well) and TVL are (honestly) not the rogues that some of them used to be (and haven't been since cleaning up their act before the last Charter review).    OTOH, there is no need and no benefit to speaking with them at the door.  

I don't see commercial companies responding overly to the needs of people without TV Licences - both because TVL are unclear about the rules and because the commercial companies have no way to identify which/how many of their customers don't have a Licence.

The Court cases of TVL Goons taking disabled, mentally impaired, single mothers and the Elderly are still being reported.

Indeed, and it's possible that they now form a greater proportion of cases because of the public being more aware that they do not have to speak with TVL at the door.

Hopefully, the TV Licence is nearing the end of its existence - I can't honestly see it surviving beyond 2027 in its present form.

jbrassy

You say the relative with the TV is elderly. Does this mean they are over 75? If so, they don't have to pay for a TV licence anyway. 

If they are over 75, you sound more of a 'goon' for making such a fuss about this. 

Cornucopia

jbrassy said:

You say the relative with the TV is elderly. Does this mean they are over 75? If so, they don't have to pay for a TV licence anyway. 

Only if they are in receipt of Pension Credit.

giraffe69

jbrassy said:

If they are over 75, you sound more of a 'goon' for making such a fuss about this. 

Perhaps you want to check your facts beofre making such statements!

jon81uk

LeesArt said:

oldernonethewiser said:

I don't think anyone has shot themsleves in the foot.

Never click the "live" option then you will never be watching live TV.

Well Pluto displays live TV from the moment the App loads.

The issue is that if a TVL goon takes a photo from a window (something they have been seen doing) and they see a menu option that says LIVE TV then they will use that to get a Warrant and then falsify evidence ((something they have been seen doing).

It seems mad to be that the mainstream channels have catch up channels but put the LIVE one on their App.

You are way overthinking this. Even if TVL take a photo through the window, the presence of a menu option doesn't mean anyone is actually watching live TV. Just use the apps and never click to watch live.