Octopus to EDF - please help beginner in a pickle

kimwp

rebeccaqphan said:

Thank you t0rt0ise. My husband bled them and water came out immediately so closed it back up. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing.

Mark_d how do you check boiler temperature please? I had the whole system flushed around 1.5 years ago too. So not sure if it needs another one?

I tried that once - left the heating on for 24 hours and the next morning it was slightly warmer but still not burning, like I think it should do. But that day was a really cold winter day so not sure whether that changes things?

Thank you Bobbie320 and Grumpy_chap for your help. I haven’t had the heating system serviced in the past year. 

Water coming out immediately is a good thing, it means there's no air in the radiator, so needing to be bled isn't why the radiator isn't getting hot.

Check the boiler manual for checking the temperature. On mine, a couple of buttons on the front allows me to scroll through a menu and select the tap hot water temperature and the radiator water temperature.

I think once you've bled the radiators and re-pressurised it (using the filling loops to get the pressure in the boiler to be 1-1.5 bar), you could turn off most of the radiators and see if the remaining ones get hot to try to identify if the boiler is appropriately sized for the house* or which radiators have an issue. I do think the radiator pipes being hot but not the radiator is highlighting an issue though - is it all your radiators?

*There are probably websites that will do sizing calculations as well.

Phones4Chris

kimwp said:

Water coming out immediately is a good thing, it means there's no air in the radiator, so needing to be bled isn't why the radiator isn't getting hot.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree wIth you. IF the pump is running at the time, there is no guarantee that there isn't AIR circulating in the system.

Scot_39

rebeccaqphan said:

Hi all,

Newbie here needing help on a few bits please. Please let me know if I'm doing anything incorrectly!

My household comprises 3 people (myself, my husband and our 6 year old daughter). Yesterday when working out our energy usage (for the first time ever) and we were shocked with how much gas we use a year! 

Our average electricity annual usage is 2295kWh BUT our gas annual usage is 20269kWh. We both work and are out of the house 8am - 6pm weekdays. The hot water and heating is only on twice a day from 6am - 8am in the morning and 5pm to 8pm in the evening.

Our house has 6 double bedrooms and i'm considering:-

1. turning off the heating for the 4 which we don't use and then shutting the door? Not sure if that will work in reducing our usage, please help?

2. I realised that our thermostat was set to 30 degrees so have reduced that to 25. Our house is always so cold (always wearing at least 3 layers) so I didn't even realise it was set to 30. Is setting to 25 standard or is it higher or lower please?

Now - to fix or not to fix.

I'm currently on the Octopus variable rate paying approx £230 per month - £2,600 per year.

I've seen the EDF energy on MSE and used the calculator on here yesterday which gave me a saving of 18% or greater so catergorised as "strongly worth considering".

Our current:
gas unit rate is 7.52, standing charge as 27.47
electricity unit rate is 28.78 and standing charge 47.95

EDF tariff which is being advertised is
gas unit rate 5.653, standing charge 30.765
electricity unit rate is 22.607 and standing charge 63.325

I've never dealt with electricity, gas and tariffs before so those numbers mean nothing to me but I'm really eager to learn and understand the area more.

If this were your household would you advise fixing please - and could you offer any advice why our gas usage is so high and how to get it down! 

Thank you so much for reading this far and I really look forward to advice anyone has.

1) Energy use - you say shocked - but suspect it's really not that bad given size of home.

Forget what you have seen in headlines - re the pending new c£1600 cap or 11,500 kWh gas. 

Thats for a smaller house - you cannot expect to heat a 6 bed for same as typical 2-3 bed - which is what most news press figures are based on.

As a closer guideline to your situation but still smaller than a 6 double bed (plus loft ?) - Ofgem also produce a larger home TDCV - for 4-5 in 4-5 bedroom iirc - so still smaller size but more people - that's 4,100 kWh electric and 17,000 kWh gas.  

Your electric is much lower (which is good as each unit is 3-4x more expensive than gas) - but your gas higher - but so is your room count.

And all those extra unused rooms with trvs at 5 (another of your posts) - would certainly be a real risk of high consumption - on some TRV according to BG site - on a 0-5 trv that could be asking for 30C on other brands - some suggest 5=25C. 

There are some anecdotal guides - one simple one being each 1degree C change = upto 10% change in heating energy use / costs. 

2) Master thermostat.

A simple master thermostat in one room only limits rest of system if the space / room its placed in reaches the setpoint.

18-21 would be standard room temperature for say a living room - so thermostat setting there or there abouts - for many (thats NHS advice range - help the aged 21 - other specific conditions ?).

30, 25 or even say 20 currently probably makes little difference if feel need 3 warm layers in the space - as I would guess that'd probably mean room struggling in mid - high teens.  (For me 3 layers on top and 2 on legs I can sit in 14-15 for a while, 16-17 "comfortably" all day - at 18 too warm 19 back to 1 layer)

Have you actually measured room temps with a home thermometer ?

Not just at thermostat - but would be nice to know how hot some other rooms were getting as well - now or with their 5's.

2-3 hour on at a time at least initially until lift fabric of home might be a problem. 

But might also suggest an issue re boiler ratings, radiator sizes etc that don't match home losses - if it never gets to required setpoint after several hours.

If thermostat space radiators are running OK

Try setting thermostat at say 21C - and leave boiler running - e.g. if in at weekend for longer to see how high rooms can get.

But if not - suggest you need to get those radiators fixed - and then work on fine tweaking boiler and radiator settings elsewhere.

3) Your main room radiator.

It might be trivial - that radiator and others may need bleeding if been OK initially - and maybe more than once if a lot of air trapped in the system - but if do that properly and maybe repeat on any that show signs of uneven heating after a period of running - if problem persists - you maybe need a heating engineer.

(Do you have the system serviced regularly ?)

If bleeding doesn't rsolve - and if only partial radiator upgrades and sizes etc changed -  did the installers take time to rebalance the radiators across all rooms - or just work on the new ones ?

When bleeding - I would recommend opening relief valve slightly - and wait for consistent low flow - not of air or air/water mix - in my experience kind of "spits" a mix initially.  Once flow - seal.  The less volume lost the better (often very dirty - and risks dropping pressure uneccesarily). 

Do that on all radiators - but quite often the first in a flow chain will be more in need than others - in my parents house only one of 3 upstairs seemed to be an "air" trap / need bleeding regularly.  I used to bleed that one and check others 1-2 times per year on old boiler when visited - less on new closed loop system (*).

(*) Some modern boilers have a "closed" pressure circuit for radiators. Bleeding too frequently though can lead to a drop on that pressure - and if the pressure drops too low those boilers may / will switch off - until radiator loop repressurised - in some cases by manually opening mains supply valve and flow tap underneath panel. My parents and sisters both BG boilers (suspect rebadged WB? given refill procedure similarities) - have a pressure dial and a manual top up key is supplied on the inside of bottom cover - to open flow to recharge.  

If it gets into lower range red on pressure they can and do shut off. (Never got there by bleeding once or twice between services - but one did have a fault not long after install - and system was leaking into condensate pipe so difficult to spot - would drain in 2-3 days and then cut out.)

There are youtube videos to show how to top it back up.  If in doubt - call a heating engineer - its a bit tricky.

4) Radiator TRVs - unused / used spaces

If have trvs on radiators - 2 should be high enough (c15C setting on some common brands) to avoid dampness / humidity giving rise to mould in infrequently / unused spaces.

5 way too high - 1 = c10C on some = too low for me - especially if hint rooms/air damp not that well/regularly ventillated.

3 or 4 in other rooms could do - but you could easily leave on max if in same space as main thermostat - and let it do the regulation (thats 20-25 on one BG guide - or 15-20 on other sites / other models)

If think damp / humidity an issue also air (open window) regularly in summer when dry outside - 10-15 mins air can can be enough if get a decent air flow to make a big difference. 

I do that at least 1 or 2 times weekly in winter too - or run dehumidifier instead - in main bedroom (as we humans are a significant source of dampness).

(A big house like yours though may have active positive pressure ventillation / maybe even pumped mechanical heat exchange - especially if modern build - so ventillation fine though)

Black Mould comes from mix of dampness / humidity and low / cold temperatures combined - c14C or below and damp often quoted. Eliminate either the damp or the cold  - circulate air / ventillate room (avoid cold so damp condensation spots by not placing furniture against external walls a very good idea too) or heat - or moderate mix of both easily avoids. 

Dampness and cold isn't just a surface / mould issue - it can impact structure long term - posters here have said had to redo plasterwork and replace timber / wood trim etc - adversely impacted in unhet rooms.

5) Fix swap

Your not comparing equivalent rates - as others above - variable rates are changing very soon - Yuor current rates look standard current Jan - Mar numbers.

Gas is about to drop to c6p svt and electric 24.5p (regional averages from Ofgem) in line with next 3 months variable tariff rate cap  on 1st April.

One energy price forecaster quoted here and in media regularly - Cornwall Insights - predicting c5p gas and 21p electric come July.  But up a little come Oct ( c5.1 / 22.3p irc).

The EDF fixed rates need to be put in that sort of price context.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't fix though - just that you need to know that savings against the current SVT might be "flattering" the fix cost estimate currently.

Paying less is a good thing - but as you can see - the value of the fix depends on what svt rate you compare it against.
EDF have a recent offer rated by mse in their energy fix or not guide.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/are-there-any-cheap-fixed-energy-deals-currently-worth-it/

Theres a calculator there you can type numbers into to.

BellaBlondykeTheThird

Next time could you put some titles and headings so we can skip pages?

kimwp

Phones4Chris said:

kimwp said:

Water coming out immediately is a good thing, it means there's no air in the radiator, so needing to be bled isn't why the radiator isn't getting hot.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree wIth you. IF the pump is running at the time, there is no guarantee that there isn't AIR circulating in the system.

I'm assuming they've followed your previous advice 

EssexHebridean

I'm not sure this one has been asked - but is the boiler you have now the same one you had before you increased the floor area of the house? If so, could the failing to warm the place up thing be as simple as just the boiler being undersized for a now larger property? 

Gerry1

Phones4Chris said:

kimwp said:

Water coming out immediately is a good thing, it means there's no air in the radiator, so needing to be bled isn't why the radiator isn't getting hot.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree wIth you. IF the pump is running at the time, there is no guarantee that there isn't AIR circulating in the system.

It's good for the radiator concerned because it proves it's full of water and has no air in it at that moment.

Agree that there could be air trapped elsewhere in the system so things might change after pumping starts.

rebeccaqphan

Thank you kimwp and Qyburn and Phones4Chris – but I’m useless at these things so might need to call someone out to make sure I’m not breaking the system. We were bleeding the radiators when they were on – so big mistake there already.

Qyburn – I think it was properly balanced – we called a gas engineer we use at work to refit them when we moved in.

amanda1024 – thanks so much for your help. I’ve had a lot of people recommend the Octopus Tracker so definitely looking into that. Just need to arrange a smart meter put in place.

Scot_39 – thanks so much for all your advice. Very detailed and helpful. I’ve never measured the room temps so will look into buying what another commentor said above to track the heat. Also, we haven’t had the system serviced in the last year – so will look at doing that asap. I’ve also typed my numbers into the MSE calculator which said it was a 18% saving so should strongly be considered. But still don’t really know what that means. Either way, the clock is ticking on whether to fix or not as the deals not going to be live much longer. So many people have recommended the Octopus Tracker to me too, but I don’t have a smart meter set up yet. So undecided on how to proceed!

EssexHebridean – no, we replaced the boiler when we did the kitchen and loft extension. But loft extension doesn’t have any radiators and kitchen only has 2. So will ask gas engineer this afternoon whether we need more in the kitchen as we’ve noticed heat doesn’t retain due to bi-folding doors.

 

General question for anyone please – sorry if very silly but I’m still learning – is a heating engineer the same as a gas engineer. I’ve called out a gas engineer but not sure I need a heating engineer too?

 

In general, thank you so much to everyone who has taken time out to reply. I’m so very grateful. I’ve only just started learning about energy and gas etc. so I’m sorry in advance if I’m getting things wrong.

macman

Anecdotally, each 1C increase on the room 'stat will add 10% to your gas usage. So, at 30C, expect it to double, and then some.
I have to ask: with it set at 30C, the boiler would have been constantly running flat out to try and get it to the target temp (even though no domestic system could ever achieve that temp). Did you not notice?
Average living room temp is 21C, bedrooms 18C, though I prefer 19C/17C. 
have you got the pressure back up to 1 bar cold?

Qyburn

rebeccaqphan said:

General question for anyone please – sorry if very silly but I’m still learning – is a heating engineer the same as a gas engineer. I’ve called out a gas engineer but not sure I need a heating engineer too?

If you have a gas engineer who does plumbing then that sounds like the right person.