NatWest investments team APS ISA transfer from an external S&S provider

pjs493

I considered posting this in the death and probate forum but thought it might be better placed here.

I'm hoping someone has had a similar experience or knows what I can do to get this matter resolved.

I have had a NatWest S&S ISA for several years. My understanding is that their investment arm in managed by Coutts. My late husband had his ISA and private pension through a small wealth management firm who use Aviva.

When my husband died his financial advisor explained that I could transfer my husband's ISA into my own and I would receive the Additional Permitted Subscription allowance equivalent to the value of my husband's ISA on the day of encashment added to my own ISA as the money was transferring between spouses following the death of one spouse.

For the life of me I just can't get NatWest to sort this out correctly. I've spoken to many different people and departments on the phone and they all seem to be customer service agents without any actual banking knowledge or experience of this.

I've made several complaints but I don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Initially I was dealing with the bereavements team, but they said they don't deal with ISA transfers. I've spoken to at least three ISA/investment teams at NatWest, each try to palm the problem off on another. I was sent some forms to fill in, sent them to NatWest, and then received a letter saying they couldn't trace the accounts in question and in any case I'd filled out the wrong forms. 

I called the number on the letter and was told that Nat West don't accept APS transfers from external providers into their S&S ISAs so I would need to open a Cash ISA account and the APS allowance could be applied to that account. I could then have the funds transferred into that account and then ask NatWest to close the Cash ISA and transfer the funds into my S&S ISA. It seemed like a long winded way of doing things but I played along.

In February I thought I had every sorted by opening the Cash ISA account and filling in yet another round of forms. I received a letter in mid February stating they'd contacted Aviva to get details of my husband's ISA and would sort everything accordingly. A number was provided on the letter to use if I had any further questions.

Having not heard anything for a month, I called the number on the letter today. Had two rude customer service agents who couldn't or wouldn't help me. The first hung up when she realised how seemingly complicated by question was, and the second kept asking for my S&S account number which wasn't relevant to the situation. I eventually asked to speak to a manager who hasn't been able to help me either and has referred the issue to the complaints team.

Why is this all so complicated? The manager claims NatWest have been chasing Aviva for information. I have a direct line to the person managing my husband's ISA and Pension and they've not had any correspondence from NatWest at all.

The manger today said that his team the 'RBS Collective Funds' department, don't deal with either my S&S ISA or my Cash ISA, that a new investment ISA was opened for my in February without my knowledge or permission, and that he basically couldn't help me or provide with with any details of who could. He seemed confused as the why his department were involved at all when I didn't have investments with his department. I've had no correspondence with the S&S ISA team that deal with my investments or the Cash ISA team. From what I was told today, the funds should have been able to have been transferred straight into my S&S ISA and there was no need for me to open a CASH ISA. Each department just blames another and tells me to wait to receive more information through the post, which either never materialises, or doesn't actually address the issue.

Aviva have now transferred the money into my current account, but I can't put it in my ISA until the APS allowance is applied. The money is also not benefiting from the increases I'm getting with my S&S ISA either.

I'm at a complete loss and don't know what to do. Even my NatWest Private banking manager is scratching her head because she can't seem to get anywhere with it either.

 I can't seem to speak to someone on the phone in the investment teams who actually deals with APS transfers or does the actual investing. They're all just customer service agents, one didn't even know what an APS transfer was until I explained and they're supposed to be working in an ISA team.

Surely APS transfers happen every day, why is this so complicated and why can't different teams in one bank communicate with each other?

I feel like all I do is spend hours on the phone which results in my getting upset and distressed, I'm grieving my husband and none of these people seem to be able to deal with the matter with any sense of compassion. Having difficulties winding up his estate is stressful, especially as this seems to be the most complicated part of it. I'm managed to pay off a mortgage and settle other things with ease, but can't seem to resolve this.

eskbanker

pjs493 said:

I can't seem to speak to someone on the phone in the investment teams who actually deals with APS transfers or does the actual investing. They're all just customer service agents, one didn't even know what an APS transfer was until I explained and they're supposed to be working in an ISA team.

Surely APS transfers happen every day, why is this so complicated and why can't different teams in one bank communicate with each other?

I could be wrong but wonder if some of the difficulty relates to the use of the term 'APS transfer'?  The APS facility refers solely to the additional sum that can be paid into the recipient's ISA, and isn't directly related to physically moving the money from the deceased's ISA, so it's not handled as an ISA transfer in the usual sense.

However, bereavement teams should know this, so there's no excuse for them failing to help you....

pjs493

eskbanker said:

pjs493 said:

I can't seem to speak to someone on the phone in the investment teams who actually deals with APS transfers or does the actual investing. They're all just customer service agents, one didn't even know what an APS transfer was until I explained and they're supposed to be working in an ISA team.

Surely APS transfers happen every day, why is this so complicated and why can't different teams in one bank communicate with each other?

I could be wrong but wonder if some of the difficulty relates to the use of the term 'APS transfer'?  The APS facility refers solely to the additional sum that can be paid into the recipient's ISA, and isn't directly related to physically moving the money from the deceased's ISA, so it's not handled as an ISA transfer in the usual sense.

However, bereavement teams should know this, so there's no excuse for them failing to help you....

When I say APS transfer, what I mean is the allowance I have inherited from my husband, equal to what he had in his ISA. I already have the money as it's been credited to my current account by Aviva, I need the APS allowance to reflect in my ISA allowance so I can add the funds to it. My late husband's financial advisor originally told me that Aviva would transfer the funds straight into my NatWest S&S ISA and the exact allowance figure would be applied on the day of encashment due the the fluctuations of the markets. NatWest told me that wasn't possible but it could be done via a Cash ISA, so I opened one that is sat empty, they told me once the allowance had been applied to the Cash ISA I could put the money in the Cash ISA and then have NatWest close the Cash ISA and transfer the funds to my S&S ISA.

The NatWest bereavements team said they don't deal with ISAs (beyond account closures) or the transfer of ISA APS allowances between a deceased and surviving spouse. They only deal with account closures and credits or debts relating the the deceased and either collecting debts, or paying out credits which they have done. My husband's sole accounts were quickly closed and funds transferred to what was once our joint account and I paid off the Credit Card balance he had.

What I need is for NatWest to apply my APS allowance to my ISA (either the S&S ISA I've had for years or the Cash ISA they told me to open), so the money from my husband's ISA can go into one in my name. His savings are in excess of the annual allowance of £20k and I use most of my personal allowance every year anyway. I have the funds from Aviva, I just need the APS allowance to be applied to one of my ISAs so the money can be invested in my own ISA. I've currently got the money in one of my savings accounts, but I'm going to end up paying tax on savings which is why I need to be able to transfer the money into my ISA ASAP.

xylophone

It seems that your husband bequeathed you his ISA assets in his will BUT even if he hadn't, you would still have been eligible for the 

Additional Permitted Subscription.

See

https://www.gov.uk/individual-savings-accounts/inheriting-an-isa-from-your-spouse-civil-partner

https://moneyfactscompare.co.uk/isa/guides/the-rules-on-inheriting-isas/



https://supportcentre.natwest.com/Searchable/913257282/What-is-the-ISA-inheritance-allowance.htm


https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/Obtaining-additional-ISA-allowances-following-the-death-of-your-spouse-or-civil-partner-FINAL.pdf

Are you saying that the investments within your late husband's ISA  have now been sold and the value transferred to your current account?

You therefore know the exact value of the ISA when it was closed and have documentary evidence of and your claiming the APS from Aviva?

pjs493

xylophone said:

It seems that your husband bequeathed you his ISA assets in his will BUT even if he hadn't, you would still have been eligible for the 

Additional Permitted Subscription.

See

https://www.gov.uk/individual-savings-accounts/inheriting-an-isa-from-your-spouse-civil-partner

https://moneyfactscompare.co.uk/isa/guides/the-rules-on-inheriting-isas/



https://supportcentre.natwest.com/Searchable/913257282/What-is-the-ISA-inheritance-allowance.htm


https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/Obtaining-additional-ISA-allowances-following-the-death-of-your-spouse-or-civil-partner-FINAL.pdf

Are you saying that the investments within your late husband's ISA  have now been sold and the value transferred to your current account?

You therefore know the exact value of the ISA when it was closed and have documentary evidence of and your claiming the APS from Aviva?

Yes, I inherited my husband's ISA; his estate (barring a charitable donation and a couple of sentimental items) was left to me in its entirety. Aviva closed his ISA once they received the Grant of Probate transferred his S&S ISA balance to my current account. Potentially because NatWest have been a nightmare regarding this from day one. So I have the funds, they just aren't in the right place. You're right, the money was put into my current account and I have the exact figure. I have a letter from Aviva with that figure too.

I am trying to get NatWest to add the APS allowance to my ISA so that the funds can be moved to my ISA. Even though they were paid into my current account I transferred them to a savings account so the money could at least accrue some interest in the meantime. 

I have the direct number for the financial advisor who dealt with my husband's Aviva S&S ISA and they've not heard anything from NatWest at all regarding transferring the allowance. NatWest claim they've written to Aviva several times and haven't received a response. Given that I speak to a different person every time at NatWest and get told a different story every time (eg being told I can't get an APS transfer into my S&S ISA so I'd have to open a Cash ISA v then being told that the allowance could be added to my S&S ISA) I'm included to believe my late husband's financial advisor rather than someone in a NatWest call centre. No one at NatWest will take accountability and various investment and ISA departments keep blaming each other for not completing such a simple thing.

I even offered NatWest a copy of the letter I got from Aviva and explained that they could look at my current account records and see the incoming transfer, but they are adamant they can only get the figure from Aviva and Aviva have so far failed to give it to them. Today I was also told an investment account has been opened in my name with RBS Collective Investments (which I neither knew about nor consented to) with the plan being that they'd request the money from Aviva and put it in a new account in my name. I explained that this wasn't what I wanted but the manager I spoke to basically said he couldn't help me but would pass my case on to the complaints team as I clearly wasn't happy with the situation. All I want is for all my ISA money to be in the same NatWest investment ISA (managed by Coutts) so I don't even know why RBS Collective Investments are involved in any way. I've had no written correspondence from either the NatWest (Coutts managed team) or the Cash ISA team. I've only spoken to their customer service reps on the phone.

xylophone

https://www.natwest.com/investments/existing-customers/Key_Customer_Documents.html

If you type the above into Google, you will get a list of documents - if you scroll down, you will come to 

RBS Collective Investment Funds Limited

Additional Permitted Subscription (APS)

Allowance Transfer Form

Please use this form where you wish to transfer into your existing RBS Collective Investment Funds Limited ISA an APS

allowance from another ISA manager.

Is this by any chance what is required? Or you have already tried this route to no avail?

pjs493

xylophone said:

https://www.natwest.com/investments/existing-customers/Key_Customer_Documents.html

If you type the above into Google, you will get a list of documents - if you scroll down, you will come to 

RBS Collective Investment Funds Limited

Additional Permitted Subscription (APS)

Allowance Transfer Form

Please use this form where you wish to transfer into your existing RBS Collective Investment Funds Limited ISA an APS

allowance from another ISA manager.

Is this by any chance what is required? Or you have already tried this route to no avail?

Filled in and sent that form off twice now. I was initially told to complete this form but I immediately queried it because my investments with NatWest are managed by Coutts, not the RBS Collective Investments Fund. I was reassured that this was the correct form to send following a number of phone calls and being passed around between different departments, so I sent the form. 

The first time they wrote me a letter stating they couldn’t trace either my accounts or my husband’s and needed more information. So I called, was told to resend the forms, so I did. Then I was told my investments weren’t in the RBS Collective Investment Fund because my investments were managed by Coutts, which I knew and queried why I needed to fill in these forms to begin with. No one could explain why I’d been told to send the wrong form or tell which form was the correct form to send. 

That’s when I was spent three hours on the phone being passed around various departments again before being told it wasn’t possible to transfer an APS allowance to my NatWest Invest S&S ISA (managed by Coutts) but the easiest solution was to open an instant access cash ISA with NatWest, have the APS allowance applied to that account, pay the funds into that account, then ask NatWest to close my cash ISA and transfer the funds to my S&S ISA. It seemed very convoluted, but I was told it was the only way, so I did as I was told. Then I got a letter a week or so later, again from RBS Collective Investment Fund telling me they’d written to Aviva in order to have the funds transferred to me. I waited a month and then called today for an update. 

I’ve never had any written correspondence from either the Coutts managed team or the cash ISA team, only ever from RBS Collective Investments. Even today when I spoke to a manager, he couldn’t understand why I was getting letters from the RBS Collective Investments team with a phone number provided if I needed to discuss the issue further, he also couldn’t understand my frustration when it seemed no one I could reach on the number was actually able to help me in any capacity. He also didn’t know who could help and admitted that different investment departments don’t actually talk to each other. So far all they’ve done is blame each other and pass the buck. 

He did claim that an RBS Collective Investment Fund ISA had been opened by me in February. I tried to correct him and said that I’d opened a cash ISA as instructed, but he said that this was definitely a different account. At which point I explained that I’d never asked nor consented to this. I also pointed out that Aviva had already given me the money so it was only the allowance that needed to be applied and I knew the exact figure because I’d received the money and a letter from Aviva with the figure from the day of encashment. He said that he couldn’t do anything with that, and that Aviva hadn’t responded to any of their communications. Aviva have said otherwise. They’ve been waiting for NatWest to get in touch before Probate was granted so they could get everything set up, ready to make payment in receipt of the Grant of Probate. In the end they just paid it into my current account and closed my husband’s S&S ISA. 

I just don’t understand why it has to be so complicated. Especially as Aviva have now deposited the money into my current account I just need the allowance (equivalent to the value of my husband’s ISA on the day Aviva transferred the funds) applied to one of my ISAs. Frustratingly the manager today claimed there was no reason why my Coutts managed NatWest Invest S&S ISA couldn’t have a APS allowance applied to it, but in the same breath admitted that they’re all just call centre customer service operatives and none of them actually manage money or accounts or deal with the APS allowance transfers. He didn’t know where to put me through to either when I asked for him to transfer me to someone who did know what to do, which is why it’s been escalated again as a complaint. 

As an aside, I’ve tried to raise a complaint multiple times. Get told someone from the complaints team will call me back later that day and then never actually get a call from the complaints team. All this time my S&S ISA has been growing due to strengthening markets, my husband’s money would have been too if it was still with Aviva, but instead it’s languishing in an easy access savings account with a rubbish interest rate waiting for me to be able to move it. In the meantime I’m going to end up paying tax on that interest when the money should be in an ISA. 

Malthusian

Filled in and sent that form off twice now. I was initially told to complete this form but I immediately queried it because my investments with NatWest are managed by Coutts, not the RBS Collective Investments Fund.

Bear in mind that Coutts = RBS / NatWest but more expensive. RBS seems to have confused themselves in their efforts to pretend that Coutts is something different.

You do not have to use Coutts to use your Additional Permitted Subscription. Is getting Aviva and the wealth management firm to open an ISA in your name and transfer your husband's investments across an option? Or opening an account with a different provider entirely?

If you insist on keeping the Coutts branding, at least then you would be dealing with a normal Aviva S&S ISA -> RBS S&S ISA transfer, which their call centre might find a bit easier.

As an aside, I’ve tried to raise a complaint multiple times. Get told someone from the complaints team will call me back later that day and then never actually get a call from the complaints team.

If you have a record of making a complaint to RBS then you have made a complaint. To quote a regulatory expert, "Do or do not, there is no try." RBS is not allowed to restrict how you make a complaint to them, and you do not need RBS to call you back for a complaint to have been made. 

If in doubt, either write them a letter by recorded delivery, or send an email to an inbox which you know monitored and will send you a "We have received your email and will respond in x working days" auto-response.

They have eight weeks to provide a final response, after which you can go to the Financial Ombudsman if you are not happy.

wmb194

In my experience NatWest and RBS Investments *invest* in Coutts branded funds but the ISA/GIA is managed by NatWest/RBS.

xylophone

https://www.natwest.com/investments/our-insights/put-your-money-to-work-with-an-isa.html#:~:text=There is a limit to,to-day work for you.

When investing in a Stocks and Shares ISA with NatWest Invest, the experienced investment managers at Coutts do the day-to-day work for you. There are five ready-made funds for you to choose from, depending on your attitude to risk. You should expect to invest for five years plus but you can take your money out at any time.



https://www.coutts.com/wealth-management/specialist-planning-services/isas.html

Are you  actually a Coutts client? Do you have a private banker?

https://www.coutts.com/online-investing.html

Although the approach seems much the same......

You choose one of five funds with Coutts Invest, each with a different level of risk and potential return. So whether you want to be cautious or bold, you should find one that suits your needs.

but instead it’s languishing in an easy access savings account with a rubbish interest rate waiting for me to be able to move it. In the meantime I’m going to end up paying tax on that interest when the money should be in an ISA. 

It seems from your post that you have opened a Natwest Cash ISA?   Although why, under normal circumstances,  anyone would choose an account offering such poor rates is beyond me.

https://www.natwest.com/savings/isa-overview.html

dunstonh

wmb194 said:

In my experience NatWest and RBS Investments *invest* in Coutts branded funds but the ISA/GIA is managed by NatWest/RBS.

It is badge engineering.   i.e. Natwest product with a Coutts badge.   It uses a multi-asset fund.  I transferred one out a few years back as it was basic and expensive with no justification to retain.    It appeared to be their way of competing with robos.