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Can a Smart meter be installed flat (horizontally)?

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  • Scot_39
    Scot_39 Posts: 3,441 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 20 June 2024 at 11:06AM
    Some suppliers in uk wee supporting detached comms hub.

    Reaper said:
    mmmmikey said:
    It will be interesting to see where this goes from here. I expect that the supplier has the right to insist that the home owner covers the cost of any work needed to make the meter sufficiently accessible to be replaced...
    I would argue sufficient space has been provided as proved by the fact there is currently a meter there. If they want to replace it with a larger meter that does not fit that is their problem to solve. As Reed_Richards said I suspect they will eventually choose to fit a new non-smart meter. Something I would not be keen on as it prevents me using any of the better tariffs suited to my PV & battery installation.
    You have an incoming fuse and meter squeezed into the bottom of an already cramped cabinet space by the presence of two (more modern ?) consumer units.  I don't really see many suppliers seeing that as being anyone's problem but your own.

    Meter sizes have varied over time.  My digital 5 port meter was nearly half the height of the standard single phase analogue meter and that analogue meter smaller than the second old digital rts meter - as it replaced both it created a lot of space of my meter cabinet.  Giving lots of space for EOn to fit new CU tail isolator switches (for free) 

    The new compact smets1 smart plus comms hub took back the space of 1 old meter and as only 4 port needed an external contactor - about half the width same height as meter section - so those isolator switches needed moving.

    There isn't any real free space in your cabinet at all.

    As above perhaps an external cabled comms hub adjacent to the meter  - I've only seen one photo - for an install by Octopus few years back - right next to meter - but both squeezed below what looks like a cu style enclosure.

    https://www.speakev.com/threads/there-is-hope-for-anybody-trying-to-get-a-smart-meter-in-a-poor-signal-area.159255/

    You could - if want to benefit from smart - ask if the comms hub itself could be mounted in any limited free space or even external to your cabinet. 

    That is if your supplier supports that type of installation.

    And I dont know if even if possible under regs to have external - does anyone know if comms hub has to be on same meter backboard etc.
  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    Reaper said:
    mmmmikey said:
    It will be interesting to see where this goes from here. I expect that the supplier has the right to insist that the home owner covers the cost of any work needed to make the meter sufficiently accessible to be replaced...
    I would argue sufficient space has been provided as proved by the fact there is currently a meter there. If they want to replace it with a larger meter that does not fit that is their problem to solve. As Reed_Richards said I suspect they will eventually choose to fit a new non-smart meter. Something I would not be keen on as it prevents me using any of the better tariffs suited to my PV & battery installation.

    Yes, IMHO that's a reasonable argument and one which I would make too. 

    But it isn't just about sufficient space to house the meter, it's about having sufficient access space around it (in this case for maintenance which in this case which would include replacement if needed for whatever reason). It might be their meter but it's your boxing in, and they could reasonaby argue that if changes are needed to the boxing in to provide space and/or access for meter replacement that's down to you to sort out. Lots of people box meters in with cupboards, but there must be regulations about the extent / permanence of that boxing in and ultimately it's those regulations and how they are applied that matters.

    I think (but I'm not 100% sure of this) you may also find that they would be quite within their legal rights, subject to any backbilling arrangements that may apply, to bill you based on a reasonable estimate for any under-charge that has happened as a result of the meter running backwards. It may seem unfair given that you didn't know and they only know because you told them but again it's the regulations that matter here and it's a risk you should be aware of. (Does anyone know how this works - i.e. what the regulations say rather than opinions on the rights and wrongs of it all?).

    To be clear, I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'm just flagging up that if they play hard ball there is a very real risk that, however unfair it may seem, you'll end up having to do the work on the meter cupboard as well as getting a bill for any loss they've made due to the backwards running meter.


  • bob2302
    bob2302 Posts: 549 Forumite
    500 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    MWT said:
    The only connection from the hub to the electricity meter is for power, any data has to go over the HAN so there isn't anything special about mounting it on the electricity meter beyond an easy access power source.

    It is special to the extent it's using unmetered power.
  • MWT
    MWT Posts: 10,208 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    bob2302 said:
    MWT said:
    The only connection from the hub to the electricity meter is for power, any data has to go over the HAN so there isn't anything special about mounting it on the electricity meter beyond an easy access power source.

    It is special to the extent it's using unmetered power.
    That is fair, it would save around £10 a year I guess, so not huge but still beneficial.

  • Reed_Richards
    Reed_Richards Posts: 5,278 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    MWT said:
    So I think @MWT might be wrong.
    There is always a possibility that I could be wrong, but not in this case :smile:
    You will see there that the pins connecting the hub to the ESME are for provision of DC power and presence detection.
    There are data pins in the spec but they have no defined purpose at this time and are not even required to be fitted to the hub or the ESME.

    I find this specification ambiguous.  There are many data pins but it does seem to say that these are not used.  But if so that's crazy, there is a physical connection between the meter and the comms hub but the communication is wireless?  Any equipment you have at home where there is a choice between an ethernet cable connection or WiFi, you would surely choose the former for speed and reliability.
    Reed
  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    MWT said:
    So I think @MWT might be wrong.
    There is always a possibility that I could be wrong, but not in this case :smile:
    You will see there that the pins connecting the hub to the ESME are for provision of DC power and presence detection.
    There are data pins in the spec but they have no defined purpose at this time and are not even required to be fitted to the hub or the ESME.

    I find this specification ambiguous.  There are many data pins but it does seem to say that these are not used.  But if so that's crazy, there is a physical connection between the meter and the comms hub but the communication is wireless?  Any equipment you have at home where there is a choice between an ethernet cable connection or WiFi, you would surely choose the former for speed and reliability.
    In a typical installation, the comms hub is powered from the electricity meter and uses a Zigbee wireless network to communicate with the gas meter and IHD, so the Zigbee is already there by necessity. I guess someone has worked out it's more cost effective and/or secure and/or easier to manage to use that same method of connection to the electricity meter than it is to introduce additional circuitry and firmware in the comms hub to support wired connections as well as wireless Zigbee connections. Zigbee over that distance should be as reliable as a wired connection and the amount of data is so small speed won't be an issue. So it may seem a bit crazy but I can think of reasons why it might make sense.

  • Reed_Richards
    Reed_Richards Posts: 5,278 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    Any wireless connection is prone to EMI in a way that a properly shielded wired connection is not; it is crazy.    
    Reed
  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    edited 21 June 2024 at 9:37AM
    Any wireless connection is prone to EMI in a way that a properly shielded wired connection is not; it is crazy.    
    If you take a wider view you'll realise that isn't really an issue. If there is so much interference that the comms hub can't reliably communicate with a device that it is immediately adjacent too there's no way it's going to do anything useful at all in communicating with the DCC, gas meter or IHD. Zigbee over that distance is so reliable it's just not worth worrying about. I have 50 or so ZigBee devices spread around my bungalow and extending to my garage and shed and can count the number of issues I've had on the fingers of one foot.

    The people who design these things know what they're doing.

    Edited - apologies if you read my initial pre-edited post, the wording was sharper than I intended.
  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    Hi @Reaper bringing this discussion back into the context of your post, the significance of this is that smart meters have been designed in a way that allows the communication hub to be installed remotely without any wired connection to the electricity meter. Put it another way all the design is there for you to have a fully smart meter with just a compact electricity meter in place of your existing one so there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully your supplier will be a bit tardy in their response to give time for a technical solution to be found, and hopefully they won't bill you for the backwards running. 🤞
  • Reaper
    Reaper Posts: 7,353 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Scot_39 said:

    As above perhaps an external cabled comms hub adjacent to the meter  - I've only seen one photo - for an install by Octopus few years back - right next to meter - but both squeezed below what looks like a cu style enclosure.

    https://www.speakev.com/threads/there-is-hope-for-anybody-trying-to-get-a-smart-meter-in-a-poor-signal-area.159255/

    This is interesting. I don't have space to put the comms unit anywhere else in the cabinet (based on the photo from your link) so it would need a long enough lead to reach outside the cabinet. That would be even better as the cabinet has metal walls which would probably degrade the signal.

    BUT does anybody know:
    1) Are long leads possible?
    2) Can it be mounted above the cabinet, not on the backboard?

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