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EonNext at it again with 'End Of Life Meter' tactics for exchanging to a Smart meter

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  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,343 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    I suspect a £50 fee each year to keep non smart meters will win 90% of the protagonists round.

    Just need someone strong enough to bring in that change and enforce it.

    Why do you care?
    Mainly because if we can get 90% of the remaining smart meter protagonists or those not yet to receive their meter out of date notices the quicker everyone's bills will reduce. 

    Sometimes the "on the fence" sitters just need a little push such as costs them more to do nothing or an incentive to have them fitted.

    It's a lovely idea when you delve into it, sharing storage from domestic batteries and EV's saving billions not buying or selling excess energy which in turn leads to lowers bills. As well as less pollution

    What's not to love and this is a money saving site after all.

    Caveated by the statement that those with fitted smart meters that cannot communicate due to dead spots should not be penalised.
    I doubt it will make any difference, how much have bills risen with the costs of smart meters?

    Over the last 12 months, mine has fallen by £559.17. Had I been on SVR I would have paid £1,245.25 but by switching between various smart tariffs I reduced this to £686.08. See attached screenshot taken from my mobile just now. As well as the substantial cost saving, this illustrates a couple of the other smart meter benefits: 
    (1) with a smart meter you get access to simple to use apps like this one, which compare various tariffs so you can make an informed decision as to the best smart tariffs for you. Note that not all smart tariffs are time of use, i.e. you can benefit from smart tariffs even without any load shifting. Most of the saving I made was over the winter period when I use the most electricity, and during this period I was on Octopus Tracker which I chose specifically because most of my use over winter is in the early evening peak period which TOU prices are at their most expensive
    (2) a smart meter makes changing tariffs (and/or suppliers) particularly easy - you just need to complete a simple online form and in many cases the switch can be made the same day

  • Zandoni
    Zandoni Posts: 3,465 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    mmmmikey said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    I suspect a £50 fee each year to keep non smart meters will win 90% of the protagonists round.

    Just need someone strong enough to bring in that change and enforce it.

    Why do you care?
    Mainly because if we can get 90% of the remaining smart meter protagonists or those not yet to receive their meter out of date notices the quicker everyone's bills will reduce. 

    Sometimes the "on the fence" sitters just need a little push such as costs them more to do nothing or an incentive to have them fitted.

    It's a lovely idea when you delve into it, sharing storage from domestic batteries and EV's saving billions not buying or selling excess energy which in turn leads to lowers bills. As well as less pollution

    What's not to love and this is a money saving site after all.

    Caveated by the statement that those with fitted smart meters that cannot communicate due to dead spots should not be penalised.
    I doubt it will make any difference, how much have bills risen with the costs of smart meters?

    Over the last 12 months, mine has fallen by £559.17. Had I been on SVR I would have paid £1,245.25 but by switching between various smart tariffs I reduced this to £686.08. See attached screenshot taken from my mobile just now. As well as the substantial cost saving, this illustrates a couple of the other smart meter benefits: 
    (1) with a smart meter you get access to simple to use apps like this one, which compare various tariffs so you can make an informed decision as to the best smart tariffs for you. Note that not all smart tariffs are time of use, i.e. you can benefit from smart tariffs even without any load shifting. Most of the saving I made was over the winter period when I use the most electricity, and during this period I was on Octopus Tracker which I chose specifically because most of my use over winter is in the early evening peak period which TOU prices are at their most expensive
    (2) a smart meter makes changing tariffs (and/or suppliers) particularly easy - you just need to complete a simple online form and in many cases the switch can be made the same day


    I actually meant how much have we all had to pay for the whole smart meter programme.

    I’m also pretty certain that if everyone had one there would be less financial advantage for the people like yourself who constantly play the field.


  • Scot_39
    Scot_39 Posts: 3,556 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 10 June 2024 at 1:08PM
    be less financial advantage for the people like yourself 

    People on likes of Agile and tracker benefit from low demand vs high supply dynamics on a 1/2 hourly and daily basis.

    And tracker rates in some regions have been increased by new formulea - and ax the market stabilises and even perhaps movrs to an increasing price trend - the future is perhaps less rosy - the differences / savings reduced.

    Those day to day variations not easily factored into standard Ofgem style pricing.  Certainty in future supply pricing even over 3 months cap window  - has a price.

    Basically to some degree driven by the variability in solar and the much larger and growing wind power output.

    Their low prices encourage demand at such times which could arguably save others costs - like the payments to said renewables when asked not to generate.

    Or other balancing costs - like fees paid to conventional generators or small scale battery and diesel generating farms to sit in low power or standby when wind carrying the load.

    Although nationally their remains significant grid bottlenecks that will force curtailment payments regardless of domestic demand to existing and new capacity  for years to come.

    It's not a new problem - in 2020 a group of MPs (perhaps an energy select committee or just a group unhappy with costs and grid investment by NG et al) highlighted 3 Scottish farms that were getting 50% from curtailment fees.

    There is an argument those living locally should be able to benefit - domestically - or industrially e.g. green hydrogen (via electrolysis) etc - should be encouraged to use the power when available rather than simply not use it at all.

    Which would aguably otherwise go straight onto everyone's energy costs - e.g. so called curtailment costs (*).

    It's not as simple a question of fareness - or those playing the field saving just their own costs.

    It's inherent in the complex reality of our modern electricity power network  - the duplication of capacity (e.g. gas vs wind on still vs windy days), the disjointed planning - renewables capacity being licensed for connection years ahead of grid infrastructure (*)  and the contract terms offered to suppliers to support  their return on investment at govt set CFD rates these days - to encourage the renewables roll out.

    (*) Curtailment costs over doubled in last 2-3 years  from c£300m in 2020, c£500m in 2021 to c£800 million in 2023.

    The National Grid ESO predicts peaking at c£3bn by end of decade.  That's c£110 per household if only count them, but more like £80-90 per connection including businesses.

    Others say more e.g. See

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67494082

    "Carbon Tracker warned that wind curtailment could add £180 per year to bills by 2030, due to wind farms being built faster than the power cabling needed to transmit the electricity."



    Take recent examples - undersea cables to overcome border Grid capacity Scot to Eng bottleneck  - as new capacity licenses - new farms or capacity - come on target connection dates - like the c18GW auctioned in rounds 3 (2019) and 4 (2022)  for delivery by 2025/2027 vs those HVDC grid schemes like EGL1/EGL2 (EGL2 given provisional approval by Ofgem late Mar 2024 - 21 months after Jul 22 auction).  Thats 4GW of grid transmission capacity from Scotland to England - not even approved at same time and curently not planned to be coming on stream to 2029 (if not delayed by planning and other delays that is).

    The cost of any additional delay on those 2 links alone - from the official estimates by National Grid ESO - £409m pa.  Half of last years total.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/utilityweek.co.uk/curtailment-costs-to-rise-above-3bn-before-plunging/?amp=true

    In summary
    their is energy available to be used at least more locally to generating farms if not nationally - and we often do and increasingly will pay not to harvest and transmit / use.

    Do we simply waste it - or let those willing to - benefit ?

    And in so doing perhaps reduce some of the charges we are all collectively forecast to pay ?
  • mmmmikey
    mmmmikey Posts: 2,343 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    rZandoni said:
    mmmmikey said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    I suspect a £50 fee each year to keep non smart meters will win 90% of the protagonists round.

    Just need someone strong enough to bring in that change and enforce it.

    Why do you care?
    Mainly because if we can get 90% of the remaining smart meter protagonists or those not yet to receive their meter out of date notices the quicker everyone's bills will reduce. 

    Sometimes the "on the fence" sitters just need a little push such as costs them more to do nothing or an incentive to have them fitted.

    It's a lovely idea when you delve into it, sharing storage from domestic batteries and EV's saving billions not buying or selling excess energy which in turn leads to lowers bills. As well as less pollution

    What's not to love and this is a money saving site after all.

    Caveated by the statement that those with fitted smart meters that cannot communicate due to dead spots should not be penalised.
    I doubt it will make any difference, how much have bills risen with the costs of smart meters?

    Over the last 12 months, mine has fallen by £559.17. Had I been on SVR I would have paid £1,245.25 but by switching between various smart tariffs I reduced this to £686.08. See attached screenshot taken from my mobile just now. As well as the substantial cost saving, this illustrates a couple of the other smart meter benefits: 
    (1) with a smart meter you get access to simple to use apps like this one, which compare various tariffs so you can make an informed decision as to the best smart tariffs for you. Note that not all smart tariffs are time of use, i.e. you can benefit from smart tariffs even without any load shifting. Most of the saving I made was over the winter period when I use the most electricity, and during this period I was on Octopus Tracker which I chose specifically because most of my use over winter is in the early evening peak period which TOU prices are at their most expensive
    (2) a smart meter makes changing tariffs (and/or suppliers) particularly easy - you just need to complete a simple online form and in many cases the switch can be made the same day


    I actually meant how much have we all had to pay for the whole smart meter programme.

    I’m also pretty certain that if everyone had one there would be less financial advantage for the people like yourself who constantly play the field.


    Apologies in advance for a long post but I think you make some points that are worth repsonding to.....

    In response to your first point, that's going to be a mind-bogglingly high number by virtue of the number of smart meters out there. Even if the smart meters were bought off eBay second hand for £5 and you could fit them yourself to avid any installation costs, if you fitted them in 30 million UK households you'd have spent £150 million pounds. Of course, they cost a lot more than that by the time you factor in installation costs. 

    On the flip side, many of these would have replaced old meters that were due to be replaced anyway, so the cost could vary between very little extra if the meter was going to be replaced anyway, and the full cost of the meter if you were replacing a new meter. So straight away you can half that figure (hope that makes sense?).

    To look at this in a more meaningful way, lets say that in terms of very rough order of magnitude it costs £100 for the cost of a smart meter plus installation. As above, some of that you'd have spent anyway, so let's say on average the actual cost is more like £50. If you assume the meter has a 10 year lifespan that's a cost of £5 per year - which is a fairly insignificant amount to spend to save, in my case, £559.17 a year. Note that this is just intended to show very rough orders of magnitude - the key point is that at an individul level it's a fairly small cost in relation to the potential savings.

    On your second point, you don't say why you think that the financial advantage will diminish in time? One argument that people make is that if demand for peak time usage decreases and demand for off-peak usage increases, that will have the effect of levelling out prices - i.e. peak time prices will decrease and off-peak will increase. This argument assumes everything else is equal - and more specifically supply remains unchanged - and I guess holds true if you make that assumption.

    However, that assumption is unreallistic because we know for a fact that supply is changing. One of the driving forces behind the smart meter roll out is the move to solar and wind energy. Because there's no control over when the sun shines or wind blows, there are often times when more energy is being generated at off-peak times than there are customers wanting to use it. This has the effect of leading to excess supply and driving down off peak costs.

    So it becomes a question of how these two different effects (and other factors) balance themselves out. It may be the gap between peak and off-peak closes as demand shifts, but it could also be that changes in supply outweigh those shifts as the move towards renewable energy increases. Time will tell.

    By the way, one of the reasons I've been chopping and changing tariffs over the last year is that I've been experimenting with different tariffs to see what works best for me. Although I've had a smart meter for several years, I've actually only been on smart tariffs for a year. Because I also have solar panels and electric heating my pattern of use is very different between the summer and winter so I expect that going forward I'll change tariff twice a year. Armed with smart meter data and one of the ever improving apps I envisage spending half an hour twice a year changing tariffs.

    On a broader note, I do understand and respect that, save for meters at the end of their life, customers do have a choice and I think it's perfectly fair game for people to exercise that choice in whatever way they see fit.

    In my case, you ony have to look at the screen shot I posted above to see why I am very much a smart meter fan-boy. I can also understand why @pseudodox has chosen not to have a smart meter having balanced the various factors. I'm undecided as to whether I'd do the same in that situation but certainly understand the reasons presented.

    On the flip side, there's an awful lot of misinformation and speculation about smart meters in circulation, and this forum is somewhere people come to in order to make informed choices. So where people are making choices based on information that is out of date or sometimes just plain wrong, it is to be expected that those reasons will be challenged and/or questioned. That's the whole point of the forum.

    This is first and foremost a money saving site and in the hard-nosed, pragmatic world of money saving the financial benefits of smart meters are overwhelming for most people. That is why you'll find an awful lot of people on this forum singing the praises of smart meters, shouting down the bogus reasons for not having them and doing everything they can to dispel the myths.

    Where people are choosing not to have smart meters for (perfectly understandable !) more emotional reasons, I think that's a shame because they are missing out on the benefits, but that's up to them. For example, I can see why folk are so completely and utterly hacked off at the high-pressure tactics used in the roll out that they are objecting out of principle.
  • pseudodox
    pseudodox Posts: 505 Forumite
    100 Posts Second Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper
    I appreciate being mentioned above in a tone that acknowledges my choice/reasons.

    Generally speaking I don't appreciate being told I am just plain wrong to not take the chance to save on my energy costs.  We are all entitled to prioritise what we spend our money on & I live a lot of my life on the cheap.  I wonder how much the champion savers have spent on other things.  How many of you are driving a car that you bought new 22 years ago & every penny ever spent on it amounts to £36,570?  THAT is my big money saver.

    I am currently on holiday, self catering, solo in 6 berth caravan that cost me £149 for a week.  I don't eat out so food costs are same as at home.  I go out walking every day which costs nothing & can use my bus pass to do one way walks.  I am having a great time!  But I don't think everyone else should do the same just to save money.
  • bob2302
    bob2302 Posts: 558 Forumite
    500 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper

    There is also the issue of variable pricing which smart meters make possible. I don't doubt that will work for some but for those of us who can't have all their power-hungry appliances running in the middle of the night it won't.
    I haven't anything I can move into the middle of the night,  and I assumed the same. It turned-out I was spending about 50% more than I needed to per kWh. I benefit because I don't use all that much energy between 4pm & 7pm.
  • MP1995
    MP1995 Posts: 495 Forumite
    100 Posts Name Dropper
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    Zandoni said:
    MP1995 said:
    I suspect a £50 fee each year to keep non smart meters will win 90% of the protagonists round.

    Just need someone strong enough to bring in that change and enforce it.

    Why do you care?
    Mainly because if we can get 90% of the remaining smart meter protagonists or those not yet to receive their meter out of date notices the quicker everyone's bills will reduce. 

    Sometimes the "on the fence" sitters just need a little push such as costs them more to do nothing or an incentive to have them fitted.

    It's a lovely idea when you delve into it, sharing storage from domestic batteries and EV's saving billions not buying or selling excess energy which in turn leads to lowers bills. As well as less pollution

    What's not to love and this is a money saving site after all.

    Caveated by the statement that those with fitted smart meters that cannot communicate due to dead spots should not be penalised.
    I doubt it will make any difference, how much have bills risen with the costs of smart meters?
    You mean what is the cost of the smart meter rollout to date per domestic and business customer?

    Tough to answer maybe £400-500 per electricity standing charge with the quick Google I could find but by no means accurate. By the time this is done probably £1000 as a guess.

    To put that into perspective in just the last year we have saved over £800 being on Octopus Agile. Even on Tracker without the load shifting hassle we would have saved approx £600 in one year alone.

    To go back further we have saved over £2000 since having our smart meter fitted, firstly a smets1 and now a smets2. 

    The message is embrace the change and save money, fight the change and be out of pocket.






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