Co-owners of freehold selling their flat

user1977

eddddy said:

arciere said:

“The Common Parts” shall mean and include where applicable (though not by way of limitation) all and any main entrances passages landings staircases (internal and external) access yards footpaths means of refuse disposal and all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor and are intended to be for the common use of all Flat Owners

To me, that sounds like a perfect description of the front garden - specifically "all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor"

The front garden has been retained by the lessor (i.e. it has been retained by the freeholder). So the front garden is a Common Part.

No, it's "all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor and are intended to be for the common use of all Flat Owners". These are separate conditions, both of which require to apply for it to be a common part. Of course that doesn't help if it's otherwise unclear whether something is intended to be for common use, but if in practice the garden is shared then it's a common part.

arciere

HampshireH said:

Before you planted the plants did you seek permission from your neighbour....were they agreeable? 

If not then it's no different to them removing said plants without your permission or you being agreeable.

Sounds like the area should just be laid to lawn and mowed occasionally.  Visually appealing, no arguments
 Put your plants in your own gardens

The front garden was included in the sale of the flats (again, as part of the freehold). At that time, it was very well maintained by the previous owners with trees and fruit trees, flowers, plants, etc. Nothing was planted by us. If anything, we tried to maintain it as much as we could until we acknowledged what the situation with the neighbours was. They decided to (gradually) remove all the didn't like, often going against our will, because (their words) "when we bought the house, it was winter and we didn't see what plants the garden had".

Bear in mind that it's not a question about liking a plant or not. It would've have been a different matter if they had replaced what they didn't like with something else, but all they (ever) did was cut, damage and leave tree stumps.

At one point we did discuss about the lawn option, which they liked in principle, but that was quickly discarded when they said "we did our part by cutting the plants, we did you a favour, now you pay for the rest".

ThisIsWeird

Could the 'front garden' come under under 'access yards footpaths...', even 'means of refuse disposal' - where are the bins put out? Even 'all other areas...'
It will always be a potential issue when there's only two leaseholders sharing a freehold, so there's no majority to force a decision, but most folk are reasonable enough, and houseproud enough to want to agree a good way forward.
Let's face it, Arc, they can't possibly be worse than what you have....
I don't think there's anything that can be added to the leases to force them to maintain the communal area in a particular style, so be prepared to compromise if/when needed. But I'm a bit surprised that it doesn't oblige the Freeholder to generally keep the communal areas in a good state of repair?
Anyhoo, to alter the leases for such a seemingly unnecessary tweak would almost certainly delay things - I'd be inclined to get on with it...

arciere

user1977 said:

eddddy said:

arciere said:

“The Common Parts” shall mean and include where applicable (though not by way of limitation) all and any main entrances passages landings staircases (internal and external) access yards footpaths means of refuse disposal and all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor and are intended to be for the common use of all Flat Owners

To me, that sounds like a perfect description of the front garden - specifically "all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor"

The front garden has been retained by the lessor (i.e. it has been retained by the freeholder). So the front garden is a Common Part.

No, it's "all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor and are intended to be for the common use of all Flat Owners". These are separate conditions, both of which require to apply for it to be a common part. Of course that doesn't help if it's otherwise unclear whether something is intended to be for common use, but if in practice the garden is shared then it's a common part.

I mean, it is shared because we are the freeholders. It's not shared because we need to share it, like it's not a passage or an entrance, like it would be for a "normal" house (it's an end-of-terrace building and both entrances are located after the front garden). We could, in theory, sell it to a third-party and not be affected in any way (other than the gas meters being there).

eddddy

user1977 said:

No, it's "all other areas the ownership of which is retained by the Lessor and are intended to be for the common use of all Flat Owners". These are separate conditions, both of which require to apply for it to be a common part. Of course that doesn't help if it's otherwise unclear whether something is intended to be for common use, but if in practice the garden is shared then it's a common part.

We could have a debate about what would be a reasonable interpretation of the lease, etc.

But in the context of this thread it's irrelevant. Either...

• 1) The front garden has been retained by the lessor as a common part

Or...

• 2) The front garden has been retained by the lessor for other purposes

Neither of those options make the lease defective.

Neither of those options make it easier for one joint freeholder to take action against another joint freeholder for wrecking the garden.

And even if the lease is very ambiguous about whether option 1 or option 2 applies - I can't see much benefit in  spending thousands of pounds on a lease variations to clarify whether option 1 or option 2 applies.

YoungBlueEyes

If it was me I'd be losing the battle to win the war. I mean how long do you want to be carrying on like this for? Be the better person and get on with your life. You never know, the next neighbour might be a gardener and you'll be in clover. Or maybe they won't be gardeners at all and just be happy to look at whatever flowers/plants/trees you plant. 

But you won't find out while you're effectively keeping your current neighbours here.

arciere

YoungBlueEyes said:

If it was me I'd be losing the battle to win the war.

I get what you mean, but from my point of view they would be winning this battle and the war. They do what they want, behave how they want then leave when they want. The garden issue is probably 10% of all the issues we've had.

We've always been on the cautious side because we wanted to be friendly at first, then it was "you don't want to escalate the situation", "you will have to declare this when you sell", "it's not worth fighting over this". I see this as the first opportunity where they need something from us.

But I totally get that this is 'irrational' thinking and the easiest and probably best thing to do would be, once more, to just do what they want, the way they want it, and "get rid of them".

ThisIsWeird

arciere said:

YoungBlueEyes said:

If it was me I'd be losing the battle to win the war.

I get what you mean, but from my point of view they would be winning this battle and the war. They do what they want, behave how they want then leave when they want. The garden issue is probably 10% of all the issues we've had.

We've always been on the cautious side because we wanted to be friendly at first, then it was "you don't want to escalate the situation", "you will have to declare this when you sell", "it's not worth fighting over this". I see this as the first opportunity where they need something from us.

But I totally get that this is 'irrational' thinking and the easiest and probably best thing to do would be, once more, to just do what they want, the way they want it, and "get rid of them".

In their heads, they will believe - tell themselves - they are winning (or the woman at least - the hubby is more normal?). But, if she has a personality disorder - and fair chance she does - then there is nothing you can do to change that.

Even if 'forced' to apologise, she'd be telling herself, inside her head, that she's 'fooling' you, manipulating you just so's she can get what she wants. She's WON! (inside her head).

Possibly you could drag this out and antagonise her to the point the facade crumbles, and she loses it completely, but good chance that would be accompanied by their home being withdrawn from the market.

A Q to ask yourself - is that lady 'happy'? Will she ever be satisfied with her life, her 'lot'?

Nope.

Move on, and let her fester somewhere else.

Grumpy_chap

I still don't understand why the OP is not simply doing everything they can to facilitate the current neighbours moving away in the most harmonious way possible.
I do not see that anything can be gained by trying to settle old scores about the front garden or whatever else.
Just be the better person and avoid anything that may have to be recorded as a dispute, or anything that may scare away the prospective purchasers, thus resulting in the current residents remaining.

I can't follow all the comments about the lease, but I can understand why the front garden would be a "common part" rather than demised to one specific flat.
It would prevent one owner converting the front garden to a driveway which might be to the detriment of the other.

arciere

ThisIsWeird said:

In their heads, they will believe - tell themselves - they are winning (or the woman at least - the hubby is more normal?)

He is, we've always had constructive discussions with him (in person), but that quickly changes behind the keyboard. Email is the only way that she wants to communicate, because she can dictate what he has to write. He never agrees to anything in person, always says I need to speak to wife about this.

But yeah, you're right, although she did lose it, if insulting slash racist emails count as losing it, or when she had to be pushed inside by the husband when he saw she was getting too heated during a normal conversation.

Then I guess I just need to make sure we're covered on the legal side of things, when the transfer happens, and forget about all the rest.