Co-owners of freehold selling their flat

AlexMac

If I was buying leasehold flat with a “share of freehold” ( my preferred tenure second only to a freehold house) I’d be unhappy if the Co-freeholder made a  pre-emptive bid to buy “my” share of the freehold.  Not what I’d call getting off on the right foot?

I’ve owned three shared freehold flats and we freeholders worked really well together; although we had the benefit of slightly larger units (6-flat conversions of period mansions), competently drafted and comprehensive leases and a legal structure (a shared freehold, non profit, “Company Limited by Guarantee”.  This meant that we had “limited liability”  not personal responsibility if a contractor fell off a ladder and tried to sue!)

 The leases and Company Constitution were watertight in specifying  Management and control arrangements , shared or individual flats’ and common areas’ maintenance responsibilities, insuring liabilities for the overall structure and crucially, how costs were to be shared via one-off levies and annual Service Charges. We managed it all ourselves, not via an Agent, so it was all done perfectly! 

Nevertheless, we ensured we welcomed new owners to ensure Co-operation; one newbie arrived with  suspicions based on past experiences like yours.  We won him over!

I assume you have none of these structures in place ( which seems odd?) nor that your conveyancing Solicitor didn’t think about nor explain the implications and liabilities of your tenure (which seems incompetent?).  So do you have a totally un constituted, ad-hoc relationship with the other freeholder?  How do you fund stuff like Insurance, and shared jobs like roof/gutter repairs etc? 

If it is that ad-hoc, you’ll just have to schmooze the new owner. 

But is it?  Have you re-visited the lease and “report on tenure” which your conveyancer gave you?  

arciere

Schwarzwald said:

if you can block the transaction, i would consider it.
the seller apparently wants to sell and move on, so it puts them into a position where they want something from you.
why give this for free?

i would tell them that you want to get [abc] sorted first and while engage with their solicitor, not resolve what they are after.
if they are serious about the sale, they will move towards you.

you know what you want, freehold, etc., i would put this forward.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, we can't wait to have them gone. On the other hand, we don't want to be like 'it doesn't matter, friends again, here are our signatures!'

They made us go through hell every time we had to do something, we've really given up trying to be friendly again.

arciere

AlexMac said:

If I was buying leasehold flat with a “share of freehold” ( my preferred tenure second only to a freehold house) I’d be unhappy if the Co-freeholder made a  pre-emptive bid to buy “my” share of the freehold.  Not what I’d call getting off on the right foot?

Oh yes, that's why I wrote earlier that it might be too late for that, because if they've appointed a solicitor, it means that they have already found a potential buyer, and he won't be happy if we did that (I wouldn't!).

AlexMac said:

I assume you have none of these structures in place ( which seems odd?) nor that your conveyancing Solicitor didn’t think about nor explain the implications and liabilities of your tenure (which seems incompetent?).  So do you have a totally un constituted, ad-hoc relationship with the other freeholder?  How do you fund stuff like Insurance, and shared jobs like roof/gutter repairs etc? 

If it is that ad-hoc, you’ll just have to schmooze the new owner. 

But is it?  Have you re-visited the lease and “report on tenure” which your conveyancer gave you?  

I feel like I've been doing more researches myself than our solicitors during the sale. It was (still is) our first house and we didn't have much experience then, we just went with the solicitors that the estate agency recommended (surprise surprise, they're no longer recommending them).

This is the relationship we have had with the other freeholder:

- Tried to get planning permissions to rebuild a garden room that was collapsing (this was also our only entrance to our upstairs flat). They tried to block it in every possible way, writing to us that, among other things, they don't want 'builders around because they might get robbed' (no kidding)
- We've had a leak upstairs from our boiler pipes. We turned off the heating as soon as we found that out. Damage downstairs: almost nothing, a few drops of water behind an hidden cupboard. We said we were going to fix it when we could find a suitable quote, the lady stormed out of her house and started to punch and kick our door, left blood stains on it and then started to cut (even more) plants in the front garden
- Buildings insurance: I always had to manage this myself, and recently almost begged to get their 50%. At one point they said "we will do our own", to which I replied "nope, you're required to insure the entire building".

TL;DR: our relationship is bad and we've given up trying to be friendly.

eddddy

OK.... so you really want to play some serious hardball!

Essentially, you're going to say "Pay me £x or I won't allow the freehold to be transferred to a new buyer."

Based on your experience of your neighbour, how do you think they'll react to that?

And you need to be careful how you present your demand for money to your neighbour's solicitor - so it doesn't sound like it's essentially blackmail.

And it took you a long time to get to the point in this thread of saying "I want some money". Maybe you need to be more concise when you're dealing with solicitors. For example, start with a simple, clear explanation of why the neighbour owes you money.



I guess you also need to think about how this 'dispute' will be viewed by the buyer. For example, might it make them think that it's you who is difficult, and you're likely to demand money from them when they sell? If so, they might decide that they don't want to be joint freeholders with you, and run a mile.

arciere

I don't know how they will react to that to be honest. And I don't even know if I can 'block the transfer', which is kind of why I posted (not that I want to, but I was trying to understand if the two issues were totally separate, or if I can use one to leverage against the other). I was under the impression that, by being tenants in common, all they had to do was to transfer their share to the new buyer, without involving us.

There are so many things that tell me 'don't be a fool by trying to be friendly again', after they've vandalised our door and garden, threatened us on several occasions and insulted us in every possible way.

But if I look at all this, maybe the only thing that we could get out of this sale would be sorting out the garden, as I really doubt I could use the 'she left blood stains on my door' incident to justify the 'we don't want to sign just yet'.

nicmyles

I just don't think there is anything you could get that is going to be better than them leaving the property and your life. Start fresh with a new owner.

Of course, they may also be a nightmare, but most people, on buying a flat with a jungle of a shared garden, would respond very positively to suggestions on how to improve it, and would be relieved that there were proposals that involved sharing costs and work.

Different situation, but the previous owner of my current house was difficult and had poor relationships with neighbours resulting in various issues which, when they found out we were normal, have all been resolved.

arciere

I agree with you, because we get along with pretty much everybody else in the neighbourhood and became friends with a few.

But I keep telling myself: why should we bear the cost of the renovation, given that they damaged it?
We had a beautiful small tree/bush with yellow flowers in the middle of the garden. They cut it because "yellow attracts insects". I don't know how much it would cost to replace that plant alone, but why should they get away with this and many other things?

Albermarle

But I keep telling myself: why should we bear the cost of the renovation, given that they damaged it?

Maybe because it will less cost and hassle in the end? Least worst result ?

Also maybe the new neighbour will be happy to share the work/cost as sorting a front garden out, should not really cost all that much.

[Deleted User]

What’s done is done. They’ve already gotten away with stuff because you’ve let them, that’s just putting it bluntly. The time to rectify past events was back then, not now. You’ve done your bit to, sort of, keep things amicable(ish).

Don’t drop to their level, keep your head up. They might enjoy making you miserable, so you’ll just feeding them more joy.

I would be doing whatever to facilitate getting them gone, regardless. Them gone is your reward. I wouldn’t be dwelling on past things. Seriously, let it go. You’ll thank yourself in time. 

Grumpy_chap

Sign the paperwork with a cheery smile and a wave, say how much you wish them well for their futures.

Then go back inside, and crack open the champagne to celebrate the fact they are going