Update on dispute over jointly inherited house, and more questions

BikingBud

DepositSaver said:

BikingBud said:

 DepositSaver said:

sevenhills said:

It sounds to me that your brother might be better off in rented accommodation, with someone else maintaining the property. I haven't read the old thread, if your brother has difficulties, he may be better putting his name down for social housing, even if it takes more than a year.

Is he capable of looking after his own affairs, could/should you be his guardian?

Thank you. I've suggested to him several times that he'd be, better off renting somewhere. He mostly just ignores me, other than one occasion when he told me he wouldn't have any landlord references (having only ever lived with parents/a parent and now alone). He's never been willing to enter in to any discussion with me about renting.

I don't know if he'd get anywhere applying to social housing? He is a single adult male with no dependents. He does have some mental health issues, but is perfectly capable of looking after his own affairs. He's been doing so since my dad died, and it's only lack of money due to being unemployed that is causing him problems. He probably doesn't know the practicalities of finding a place to rent, but that's because he's never done it before. 

As there are no other dependents or relations of your brother would the outcome, if you both did nothing else, be that the other half of the house passes to you?

Does this give you a worst case fall back, and therefore a long-term position that might be acceptable?

Thank you, I'm not sure what you mean by if we both did nothing else the outcome would be that the other half of the house passes to me? If we both do nothing the house remains in the name of my dad's estate and even if we manage to insure it at expiry this year, I imagine no insurer would insure it forever in the name of the estate. So we need to do something. Or do you mean that if my brother dies before me, his half would come to me? I don't know the answer to that as I don't know if he has a will and if he does, what's in it. If he doesn't then yes it would come to me I guess (though how that works if it's still in my dad's name I don't know). But if he has a will I doubt he'd leave it to me, he has no wife and no dependents but does have someone close to him he might leave it too (though that person will almost certainly die before my brother so I don't know what would happen then). 

As I understand you don't co-own a house, the house is still in the wrapper for your father's estate and the will has not been executed.  There appears to be no time limit for the execution of a will other than acting in the best interest of the beneficiaries and you have reached an impasse.

Hence I mean if you forget about it and allow your brother to live there.

You pay nothing towards the upkeep and maintenance they cover all the costs.

Yes the property will likely deteriorate and may be devalued, this may be a concern but compare this with the current and enduring impact upon your health and well being for over 3 years.

As your father's will has not been executed then that obligation remains and even if your brother has a will to disburse his assets that can only take place after your father's wishes have been met ie what has been willed by your father to you cannot be passed by your brother to others.

If your brother has no will then intestacy comes into play and with my current understanding you would inherit.

Who says you must pay insurance? Yes it makes sense and is required for mortgages but it is not an obligation, moreover if the house if not kept in good repair due to lack of maintenance you might find the policy becomes invalid anyway.

So I sort of agree with @Sea_Shell above; if you need the money you need to get on and press for sale, if you're feeling benevolent and want to see the back of it then hand over your share or if you do not need the money and are content to play the long game just let it run, explain the limits of you support ie no further funding allowed, do not discuss any further, destress and get on with other important things in your life.

Just to check you have put a Property Alert on Land Registry for the property?

Sea_Shell

DepositSaver said:

• He had further problems paying the bills so having spoken to the solicitor and been told he could do so, he got the money from my dad's bank accounts released, and split the proceeds between us.

@DepositSaver
Can you clarify if he, and he alone applied to the bank for this money, and not you?   Do you know if he signed any sort of disclaimer with the bank?

Have you personally, handled any estate money yet ? (other than what he then gave to you as your share)

As I can see that one of the only problems with the "do nothing" approach, would be if you have already "intermeddled" with the estate, and so could be deemed to have taken on that role, and could be held accountable by him for not insuring the property if there was a claim.    But it may be that he is the one who has actually started to administer the estate by applying to the bank?     

If you haven't, then "do nothing" could be the answer.   Cut all contact, if he pesters you, and literally walk away.

AfterMum

Has any inheritance tax been paid?

Savvy_Sue

AfterMum said:

Has any inheritance tax been paid?

Do we know IHT is due? May well not be.

DepositSaver

Sea_Shell said:

So, basically it comes down to this...

It's been just over 3 years since your Dad died, and you're no further forward.
Brother isn't interested in anything other than staying put.
It could take ANOTHER 3 years to force your brother out, not to mention £££

If you are adamant you don't want to co-own, (and i totally get why), then you're back to two very stark options.

Go down the legal, forced sale and eviction route.
Or sign away your 50% and just get it done and dusted and then leave him to it.*

Only you know what emotional energy you have left for the fight, which sounds like it would be much harder than the last 3 years have been.  Are you really ready to go "all in" to get him out.   

Although he would have cash for a new place, after the sale, he would probably be temporarily homeless, in the gap between selling and finding somewhere new, AIUI there is little or no cash left in the estate to bridge the move.  ie deposit on a new place.     


* I take it you're not in receipt of (or likely to be in the future) any state benefits, as this could be seen as deprivation of assets, which could affect you qualifying for them.

Not on state benefits and would hope I'm not likely to be in the future. 

I think it's probably worth whatever it would cost to get a solicitor to write to him telling him that unless he contests the will he has to agree to sell. If that doesn't get him to rethink selling, with perhaps the bribery of an uneven split of proceeds, then yes it's a decision on forced sale or leave him to it.

Yes there is no cash left to bridge the move, but he could temporarily stay with the person he is close to. 

DepositSaver

BikingBud said:

DepositSaver said:

BikingBud said:

 DepositSaver said:

sevenhills said:

It sounds to me that your brother might be better off in rented accommodation, with someone else maintaining the property. I haven't read the old thread, if your brother has difficulties, he may be better putting his name down for social housing, even if it takes more than a year.

Is he capable of looking after his own affairs, could/should you be his guardian?

Thank you. I've suggested to him several times that he'd be, better off renting somewhere. He mostly just ignores me, other than one occasion when he told me he wouldn't have any landlord references (having only ever lived with parents/a parent and now alone). He's never been willing to enter in to any discussion with me about renting.

I don't know if he'd get anywhere applying to social housing? He is a single adult male with no dependents. He does have some mental health issues, but is perfectly capable of looking after his own affairs. He's been doing so since my dad died, and it's only lack of money due to being unemployed that is causing him problems. He probably doesn't know the practicalities of finding a place to rent, but that's because he's never done it before. 

As there are no other dependents or relations of your brother would the outcome, if you both did nothing else, be that the other half of the house passes to you?

Does this give you a worst case fall back, and therefore a long-term position that might be acceptable?

Thank you, I'm not sure what you mean by if we both did nothing else the outcome would be that the other half of the house passes to me? If we both do nothing the house remains in the name of my dad's estate and even if we manage to insure it at expiry this year, I imagine no insurer would insure it forever in the name of the estate. So we need to do something. Or do you mean that if my brother dies before me, his half would come to me? I don't know the answer to that as I don't know if he has a will and if he does, what's in it. If he doesn't then yes it would come to me I guess (though how that works if it's still in my dad's name I don't know). But if he has a will I doubt he'd leave it to me, he has no wife and no dependents but does have someone close to him he might leave it too (though that person will almost certainly die before my brother so I don't know what would happen then). 

As I understand you don't co-own a house, the house is still in the wrapper for your father's estate and the will has not been executed.  There appears to be no time limit for the execution of a will other than acting in the best interest of the beneficiaries and you have reached an impasse.

Hence I mean if you forget about it and allow your brother to live there.

You pay nothing towards the upkeep and maintenance they cover all the costs.

Yes the property will likely deteriorate and may be devalued, this may be a concern but compare this with the current and enduring impact upon your health and well being for over 3 years.

As your father's will has not been executed then that obligation remains and even if your brother has a will to disburse his assets that can only take place after your father's wishes have been met ie what has been willed by your father to you cannot be passed by your brother to others.

If your brother has no will then intestacy comes into play and with my current understanding you would inherit.

Who says you must pay insurance? Yes it makes sense and is required for mortgages but it is not an obligation, moreover if the house if not kept in good repair due to lack of maintenance you might find the policy becomes invalid anyway.

So I sort of agree with @Sea_Shell above; if you need the money you need to get on and press for sale, if you're feeling benevolent and want to see the back of it then hand over your share or if you do not need the money and are content to play the long game just let it run, explain the limits of you support ie no further funding allowed, do not discuss any further, destress and get on with other important things in your life.

Just to check you have put a Property Alert on Land Registry for the property?

Thank you for clarifying. Yes you're correct, we don't co-own the house, it's still part of my dad's estate. 

Regarding the insurance, my brother was in such a panic about the insurer saying they won't renew again at the end of this term that it seemed he really didn't want it to be uninsured. If I went the do nothing route, he may well get in touch again as the renewal date gets nearer, with demands that I help him find insurance. Which of course I can say no to, but that wouldn't stop him hassling me. From my point of view, it seems not great to have a potential asset uninsured, but that affects him more than me - if it burns down uninsured, that's my chance of reducing my mortgage and guarding against future crises gone, but for him it's his home gone. 

 I haven't put property alert on the land registry but will look at doing so. 

DepositSaver

Sea_Shell said:

DepositSaver said:

• He had further problems paying the bills so having spoken to the solicitor and been told he could do so, he got the money from my dad's bank accounts released, and split the proceeds between us.

@DepositSaver
Can you clarify if he, and he alone applied to the bank for this money, and not you?   Do you know if he signed any sort of disclaimer with the bank?

Have you personally, handled any estate money yet ? (other than what he then gave to you as your share)

As I can see that one of the only problems with the "do nothing" approach, would be if you have already "intermeddled" with the estate, and so could be deemed to have taken on that role, and could be held accountable by him for not insuring the property if there was a claim.    But it may be that he is the one who has actually started to administer the estate by applying to the bank?     

If you haven't, then "do nothing" could be the answer.   Cut all contact, if he pesters you, and literally walk away.

Yes he applied to the bank for the money. He was given a form ages ago and told he could get the money without probate/LoA. Once the bank had sent him the form they contacted him a few times to remind him to complete and return it. He didn't mention signing a disclaimer. He did pay the few small debts the estate owed (such as pension overpayments)

I did sort out selling my dad's car myself, the money came to me and I split the money between us so I assume this counts as handling estate money? Though it was my brother who dealt with the paperwork side of things and handed over the V5 and keys. This was prior to the bank accounts money being accessed. I don't think do nothing is actually an option for me, as even if I tell him be is responsible for all costs, it's me he will come to when he next runs out of money, and me he will complain to if something needs fixing. 

Another poster mentioned IHT, it's well under the threshold for that. 

Debbie9009

OP, if you decide to send a solicitors letter telling him he has to agree to sell the house, I would be tempted to add into that, that as he is the only one benefiting from the house that you will no longer help him with it in anyway, and this includes but is not limited to finding insurance, paying bills, repairs and maintenance.

I would then go no contact, let calls go to voice mail, don’t answer emails, and if turns up at your house don’t answer the door to him, if any other family members try to discuss it with you, simply refuse.  Once he realises he is on his own with it, he might change his mind about selling.  I know it might sound harsh but he is an adult, who is not behaving fairly towards you, and who is not honouring his father’s wishes.

brasso

Amazing that this has continued unresolved for 3 years now. Just a few random points. All rather disjointed I’m afraid.

• I’m all in favour of empathy and compassion but it shouldn’t become an excuse for your brother to surrender his responsibilities. Him telling you that he won’t discuss options and won’t agree to arbitration, is unacceptable. But the problem with you just saying "oh, ok" (not literally but that’s the effective result) is that he feels he’s getting what he wants, namely continuing to live in the house. It’s as if he’s pulling the duvet even further over his head, and sticking his fingers deeper into his ears. You’ve unwittingly given him the idea that his non-cooperation is a good solution because you’re too nice to do anything about it.

• You've said several times that your brother says "I just want to carry on living here." He needs to accept that this isn’t an option. That it may seem like a good idea to him but that it’s fundamentally wrong, unfair and contrary to the wishes of your father. And contrary to the terms of the will which is a legal, enforceable document. How exactly you get him to understand this, I don’t know but if he’s a reasonably rational and intelligent person, he doesn’t have the option of saying black is white, and refusing to accept the truth. 

• Regarding the will, you say that the executor has basically said "sorry, too difficult", and walked away. OK, it happens, and as someone who’s been an executor myself I appreciate that’s very tempting. But there must be recourse in law to deal with this. I can’t recall what legal advice you have yourself sought and received but you really must go to a solicitor, explain the impasse, get advice, and agree an action plan. If this means getting some sort of court order, so be it. I’m sure that no solicitor would jump straight to the blunt instrument of eviction and forced sale. He or she would, I suspect, insist that some sort of arbitration is offered to you and your brother, with the very strict understanding that if brother refuses, then you’ll have to go down the legal route.

• You’ve said that you live hundreds of miles apart. Understood, but is it unrealistic to insist that you meet up in person? I don’t know your personal circumstances ie if you have a family, but you have to think in terms of taking some time off work and going to see your brother, whether he likes it or not. If necessary, staying a night or two in a hotel. You have to tell him that this has gone on long enough now, and needs resolving. That doing nothing is no longer an option. That him denying you your inheritance is no longer an option. That "I just want to live here", while understandable, is no longer an option. Easier said than done, I know, but you have to get a grip, and insist that he gets a grip too. If he continues to not cooperate you explain that the only option is the legal route.

• Sounds like he has a chronic apathy problem. It’s time he grasped his responsibilities to you, to himself, and to your father. It may be awkward but you have to encourage him to look beyond the house, beyond the will, and focus on his wider issues. I suspect he has a severe self-esteem problem. He should be pulling out all the stops to find another job, find a smaller, more suitable place to live, and reinvent himself. The house issue is just giving him the perfect excuse to wallow further in self-pity. "I’m unemployed! I’m broke! And now you want to make me homeless!" But no, you explain. The money he will receive from the inheritance is actually the key he needs to rebuild his life. He can recreate himself, give himself renewed hope, and allow him to break from the past. 

• Others have said this and you’ve brushed off the possibility, but you have to open his eyes to the need to live elsewhere. You suggested previously that the house isn’t worth a lot, perhaps £150K. If that’s what houses sell for in his area, there must surely be one-bed flats for £60-70K? Or if not, then with all that cash in the bank he could rent somewhere nice at a reasonable rent and live very comfortably for what, 3 or 4 years while he got his life back on track with restored self-esteem.

Sorry, I could prattle on forever here. I know these points are all over the place but you need to get this sorted, and your brother has the option of blanking you and being able to feel even more deliciously sorry for himself — or he could realise that the inheritance is his chance to start afresh and improve this life. In other words, try the carrot first with the stick kept in reserve.

Good luck!

Sea_Shell

Another question.

What sort of relationship do you hope to have, or salvage, with your brother at the end of all this?

It sounds like he'll resent you if you do something, but still resent you if you don't do anything... unless he gets his own way.

He just wants to stay put, and have you pay for (arrange) everything relating to the house!!

Anything less is seen as you being the bad guy, it seems. ☹️