PayPal's ruling

smartshopper80

It's literally regarding this post.

Website claimed my returns are just empty boxes!!! — MoneySavingExpert Forum

After negotiating with PayPal for about one month, it still doesn't go anywhere. Both me and the seller were asked to provide more supportive documents like twice, and we both did. But PayPal still labels this case as 'under review'.

However, I was informed by a CS person yesterday that because this is not a case about wrong description/faulty item/item not receive. They told me my case it's more like 'change of mind', which is not protected by PayPal's policy. I felt really confused, in that case why they wasted my time if they could not handle this claim. 

*I ordered a pair pants, which the waist was like 2 size bigger than the standard sizing. Could this be deemed wrong description?

*I used the free return provided by the seller.

I think I've given up the ruling from PayPal as these 3 days would be the deadline for opening a chargeback case with my bank. But I've lost my faith in PayPal as I feel unprotected.

Any advice? I feel really upset because this false accusation.

Thank you.

RefluentBeans

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

ArbitraryRandom

I agree that a chargeback will depend on your bank/card provider - some will reclaim the funds, some won't (either way, if PayPal are required to defend a case from your bank then expect them to close your account and any other account that uses those card/bank details). 

Re the original issue, being sent the incorrect size is item not as described, but the question would be what did you open the PayPal case as (as that will be how it's treated on the system).

Apologies I'm on lunch on my phone so haven't read the linked thread - Ideally you would have opened a SNAD case, then the seller would have provided returns information, which would have been tracked via PayPal and PayPal would have refunded as soon as the parcel was shown as delivered (leaving the seller to appeal if they say you didn't actually return the items). Is that's what happened? 

born_again

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Once that was true now PP will not dispute the chargeback, & claim money back from other party.

Not read the other thread, but if the title is correct There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.
So while OP could win the chargeback, this could end up in court if retailer so wishes.

RefluentBeans

born_again said:

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Once that was true now PP will not dispute the chargeback, & claim money back from other party.

Not read the other thread, but if the title is correct There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.
So while OP could win the chargeback, this could end up in court if retailer so wishes.

Out of interest (like I say no expert here) - if the other party disputed it with PayPal, what would the outcome be? For example, a completely different situation here, If I’m understanding you true, a customer could claim parcel not delivered (when it was) but as PP doesn’t dispute, chargeback is a success. Retailer has money withdrawn from their account, even they though they actually did provide the service. If the retailer then disputes this charge from PayPal - what feasibly could happen? 

ArbitraryRandom

There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.

@born_again That surprises me...

If the consumer was returning the goods during their 14 day cooling off period (statutory and likely contractual right for online purchases), and they used the seller's returns process (and have tracking details for the parcels via the free returns process), then I would have thought that would mean chargeback would apply (as failing to refund would be a breach of rights/contract) for the refund and the outcome dependent on the evidence provided by both sides... or does it only apply to CRA 'faulty' goods? 

smartshopper80

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Thanks for the reply. 

The update. I have asked PayPal many times, and finally I got this speeded up ruling from them yesterday, which was in seller's favour. I've seen this coming as they've really told me it's not regarding item not received/scam/faulty etc., and even for these reasons, they will need to be informed in advance before the return is made. I find this very tricky, as I believe the majority of the customers would just follow the return instructions provided by the seller. I think PayPal only wants to get rid of the responsibility, especially my case is hard for them to rule as well.

I think chargeback is actually escalated by the bank to either Visa or MasterCard group. I've had successful cases from my banks. I'm foreign, you probably tell that already I'm not a native speaker in English. I tend to use non-UK debit or credit cards, and what I've learned all these years is these foreign banks tend to evaluate it first, sometimes the refund can be issued quickly if the bank think of you as a valuable customer. I've been with some bank for like 25 years, and decent amount are spent monthly. That one would just refund it from their own pocket. However, this is the first time I face such a false accusation, and it's a different bank, so I'm worried.

smartshopper80

ArbitraryRandom said:

I agree that a chargeback will depend on your bank/card provider - some will reclaim the funds, some won't (either way, if PayPal are required to defend a case from your bank then expect them to close your account and any other account that uses those card/bank details). 

Re the original issue, being sent the incorrect size is item not as described, but the question would be what did you open the PayPal case as (as that will be how it's treated on the system).

Apologies I'm on lunch on my phone so haven't read the linked thread - Ideally you would have opened a SNAD case, then the seller would have provided returns information, which would have been tracked via PayPal and PayPal would have refunded as soon as the parcel was shown as delivered (leaving the seller to appeal if they say you didn't actually return the items). Is that's what happened? 

Thanks for the reply. 

Let me explain my case again.

I used the free return provided by the seller, and they informed me they only receive an empty box and refused the refund. They revealed some internal tracking screencap showing that it's been delivered but no actual good inside. This screencap is so sloppy and I think I could just make the same something using Word, not to mention I have checked with the service provider and they found it suspicious too.


So, the update. I have asked PayPal many times, and finally I got this speeded up ruling from them yesterday, which was in seller's favour. I've seen this coming as they've really told me it's not regarding item not received/scam/faulty etc., and even for these reasons, they will need to be informed in advance before the return is made. I find this very tricky, as I believe the majority of the customers would just follow the return instructions provided by the seller. I think PayPal only wants to get rid of the responsibility, especially my case is hard for them to rule as well.

What is the SNAD case? 

smartshopper80

born_again said:

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Once that was true now PP will not dispute the chargeback, & claim money back from other party.

Not read the other thread, but if the title is correct There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.
So while OP could win the chargeback, this could end up in court if retailer so wishes.

born_again said:

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Once that was true now PP will not dispute the chargeback, & claim money back from other party.

Not read the other thread, but if the title is correct There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.
So while OP could win the chargeback, this could end up in court if retailer so wishes.

born_again said:

RefluentBeans said:

PayPal (and in fact chargebacks) don’t have a legal basis - so a ruling either way is not binding in a court of law. It’s meant for more things like scams/products not arriving rather than dealing with issues that are more intricate. Fundamentally, if both sides present clear evidence then the status quo will be upheld as they do not consider who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ they just check if one party didn’t deliver. 

I’m not an expert on chargebacks, but based on what I’ve been told/read I think filing a chargeback would be tricky with PayPal as PayPal breaks the chain. You fundamentally paid PayPal and PayPal then paid the merchant. That line is not clear, and PayPal didn’t fail in their service (they provided a payment service to you and processed funds). The issue you have is a merchant issue and that merchant isn’t PayPal. I may be wrong here, but I don’t think a chargeback against PayPal would be successful (and in fact PayPal may well terminate your account). 

I think if you’ve got to this point now where the products are lost, your claims should be processed by the complaints protocol for the retailer and if that doesn’t work a letter before action. You then need to work out if you want to pursue the action in court or not - but once a letter before action is sent it’ll stop any future negotiations unless you actually file the action. 

Once that was true now PP will not dispute the chargeback, & claim money back from other party.

Not read the other thread, but if the title is correct There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.
So while OP could win the chargeback, this could end up in court if retailer so wishes.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

smartshopper80

ArbitraryRandom said:

I agree that a chargeback will depend on your bank/card provider - some will reclaim the funds, some won't (either way, if PayPal are required to defend a case from your bank then expect them to close your account and any other account that uses those card/bank details). 

Re the original issue, being sent the incorrect size is item not as described, but the question would be what did you open the PayPal case as (as that will be how it's treated on the system).

Apologies I'm on lunch on my phone so haven't read the linked thread - Ideally you would have opened a SNAD case, then the seller would have provided returns information, which would have been tracked via PayPal and PayPal would have refunded as soon as the parcel was shown as delivered (leaving the seller to appeal if they say you didn't actually return the items). Is that's what happened? 

They did send me the right size but it's just way too big. According the description, only the wide legs are mentioned( they're clearly shown too), but the waist is just not normal at all!

My point is, I think this is online shopping/distance selling, as a customer, I feel that I'm not protected at all! I've had several experiences all these years. Goods returned using the free service from the seller but lost in transit, and normally the seller would just refund it if the tracking shows it's been delivered. This is the first time that I have this false accusation. That's why I found myself clueless. 

Thank you.

born_again

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.