PayPal's ruling

born_again

ArbitraryRandom said:

There is no chargeback right. As package was delivered, which is the proof required.

@born_again That surprises me...

If the consumer was returning the goods during their 14 day cooling off period (statutory and likely contractual right for online purchases), and they used the seller's returns process (and have tracking details for the parcels via the free returns process), then I would have thought that would mean chargeback would apply (as failing to refund would be a breach of rights/contract) for the refund and the outcome dependent on the evidence provided by both sides... or does it only apply to CRA 'faulty' goods? 

Sorry. Got that wrong way round. As proof of delivery would win chargeback. I'm guess that OP has card linked to PP account & not just bank account, where payment taken by DD. In which case no rights to claim.

Bad day yesterday, but no excuse.. 🤦‍♀️🤬

CRA has no bearing on Chargebacks. They are card regulations.

smartshopper80

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.

Thanks for the reply.

The fees I mentioned is for appeal, after twice of failure.

It was right size sent, but not the standard size compared to this brand or other brands. I think the website failed to mention that.

After PayPal's response and ruling yesterday, now I have big doubts in how they solve the claims. Because it seems:
1. Only faulty/not received/scam/wrong description type of cases are likely be ruled in customer's favour.
2. Even if it's a faulty product, PayPal will need to be informed prior to sending the item back to the seller.

So, now I'm worried about another case of mine.
Late return - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

The seller agreed the return and they seemingly received the items. But they sent an email saying that the products need to be examined so they can decide. In this case, I did not inform PayPal first. So if the seller refuses to refund and I make a claim later, PayPal probably won't rule in my favour as I sent the products back before letting them know?

born_again

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.

Thanks for the reply.

The fees I mentioned is for appeal, after twice of failure.

It was right size sent, but not the standard size compared to this brand or other brands. I think the website failed to mention that.

After PayPal's response and ruling yesterday, now I have big doubts in how they solve the claims. Because it seems:
1. Only faulty/not received/scam/wrong description type of cases are likely be ruled in customer's favour.
2. Even if it's a faulty product, PayPal will need to be informed prior to sending the item back to the seller.

So, now I'm worried about another case of mine.
Late return - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

The seller agreed the return and they seemingly received the items. But they sent an email saying that the products need to be examined so they can decide. In this case, I did not inform PayPal first. So if the seller refuses to refund and I make a claim later, PayPal probably won't rule in my favour as I sent the products back before letting them know?

There is no std sizing as such. Common issue..
So in reality this is a change of mind return

smartshopper80

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.

Thanks for the reply.

The fees I mentioned is for appeal, after twice of failure.

It was right size sent, but not the standard size compared to this brand or other brands. I think the website failed to mention that.

After PayPal's response and ruling yesterday, now I have big doubts in how they solve the claims. Because it seems:
1. Only faulty/not received/scam/wrong description type of cases are likely be ruled in customer's favour.
2. Even if it's a faulty product, PayPal will need to be informed prior to sending the item back to the seller.

So, now I'm worried about another case of mine.
Late return - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

The seller agreed the return and they seemingly received the items. But they sent an email saying that the products need to be examined so they can decide. In this case, I did not inform PayPal first. So if the seller refuses to refund and I make a claim later, PayPal probably won't rule in my favour as I sent the products back before letting them know?

There is no std sizing as such. Common issue..
So in reality this is a change of mind return

Well, I guess judging from many responses here, customers are not protected at all, if the return is labelled as 'change of mind'. 

I shouldn't be mentioning this but my last card would be 'I will tell the bank that I will cancel the card if the issue cannot be solved'. It might sound odd here, but I've mentioned that I'm foreign. My card issuers tend to have much more flexibility than the UK ones. I'd had a bad experience making a claim with Lloyld, and that's why I prefer to use my foreign cards(also, for the sake of extra cashback). I spend decent amount of money monthly, for these foreign banks, the overseas service charge could be a lot in total. And a couple of my credit cards are the high level ones. Based on my experience, my banks tend to issue the refund in advance before they continue on chargeback with either Visa or MasterCard. It's just this time, it's a false accusation to me and I feel extremely pxxxed, and also the card I used happens to be not a posh one, and I also have no experience dealing with this bank for such a issue.

ArbitraryRandom

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.

Thanks for the reply.

The fees I mentioned is for appeal, after twice of failure.

It was right size sent, but not the standard size compared to this brand or other brands. I think the website failed to mention that.

After PayPal's response and ruling yesterday, now I have big doubts in how they solve the claims. Because it seems:
1. Only faulty/not received/scam/wrong description type of cases are likely be ruled in customer's favour.
2. Even if it's a faulty product, PayPal will need to be informed prior to sending the item back to the seller.

So, now I'm worried about another case of mine.
Late return - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

The seller agreed the return and they seemingly received the items. But they sent an email saying that the products need to be examined so they can decide. In this case, I did not inform PayPal first. So if the seller refuses to refund and I make a claim later, PayPal probably won't rule in my favour as I sent the products back before letting them know?

There is no std sizing as such. Common issue..
So in reality this is a change of mind return

Well, I guess judging from many responses here, customers are not protected at all, if the return is labelled as 'change of mind'. 

You would be protected by PayPal if you had changed your mind within 14 days AND used the PayPal returns process (PayPal take the view they aren't responsible for things done off the platform) as you would have had your refund as soon as the tracking showed you had returned. 

As you arranged the return directly with the seller, your legal protection is that you can take the seller to small claims court for your refund (providing evidence that you complied at all stages, the weight of the parcel if you have it etc), and on the balance of probability (51%) the court will decide if it's more likely you returned the items and they were lost or you returned empty parcels. 

(Oh, and as your question above, SNAD is short for 'significantly not as described' - one of the categories for a PayPal dispute)

born_again

smartshopper80 said:

Well, I guess judging from many responses here, customers are not protected at all, if the return is labelled as 'change of mind'. 

I shouldn't be mentioning this but my last card would be 'I will tell the bank that I will cancel the card if the issue cannot be solved'. It might sound odd here, but I've mentioned that I'm foreign. My card issuers tend to have much more flexibility than the UK ones. I'd had a bad experience making a claim with Lloyld, and that's why I prefer to use my foreign cards(also, for the sake of extra cashback). I spend decent amount of money monthly, for these foreign banks, the overseas service charge could be a lot in total. And a couple of my credit cards are the high level ones. Based on my experience, my banks tend to issue the refund in advance before they continue on chargeback with either Visa or MasterCard. It's just this time, it's a false accusation to me and I feel extremely pxxxed, and also the card I used happens to be not a posh one, and I also have no experience dealing with this bank for such a issue.

Given payment has already been taken. What effect will that have?

If you think that will stop them redebiting on a chargeback, think again.. As it is your bank that does that.

Either way I suggest you google Visa Account Updater (Mastercard have the same) it allows retailer to get your new card details 👍

smartshopper80

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Well, I guess judging from many responses here, customers are not protected at all, if the return is labelled as 'change of mind'. 

I shouldn't be mentioning this but my last card would be 'I will tell the bank that I will cancel the card if the issue cannot be solved'. It might sound odd here, but I've mentioned that I'm foreign. My card issuers tend to have much more flexibility than the UK ones. I'd had a bad experience making a claim with Lloyld, and that's why I prefer to use my foreign cards(also, for the sake of extra cashback). I spend decent amount of money monthly, for these foreign banks, the overseas service charge could be a lot in total. And a couple of my credit cards are the high level ones. Based on my experience, my banks tend to issue the refund in advance before they continue on chargeback with either Visa or MasterCard. It's just this time, it's a false accusation to me and I feel extremely pxxxed, and also the card I used happens to be not a posh one, and I also have no experience dealing with this bank for such a issue.

Given payment has already been taken. What effect will that have?

If you think that will stop them redebiting on a chargeback, think again.. As it is your bank that does that.

Either way I suggest you google Visa Account Updater (Mastercard have the same) it allows retailer to get your new card details 👍

    I think that's a cultural thing. I'm originally from East Asia, where many problems can be solved by just negotiating. But of course, it depends on the level of issue, the amount of money, the relationship of the parties involved. For example, a while ago a company failed to refund an order I returned. I had been asked to provide this and that for a chargeback case, which was originally handled by a rookie agent. Then I just felt a bit annoyed by the slow process and I requested my designated financial specialist to intervene. As a high-end card holder(close to unlimited or black card), they quickly refunded it from their own pocket, and it shows as 'disputed case refunded in advance by bank'. it was easy as I have been with this bank for more than 20 years. Good record, and that refund was £400-ish which is just a small amount compared to my monthly spend. I admit I'm the ''I want to talk to your manager or supervisor' type of East Asian. Or maybe I shall I say 90% of east Asians are like that.   That is a stereotype but if you are a customer that can afford, it normally works there.

So, to be honest I could totally ignore this £300 this time, however, it really angers me as I've never faced such a false accusation. I did not mention this earlier that I have another 3 returned orders with the same seller, and they also used empty boxes received to reject the refunds. The funniest and stupidest thing was they did not even get the parcels. The parcels were lost in transit without even reaching the carrier's hub. 

smartshopper80

ArbitraryRandom said:

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

born_again said:

smartshopper80 said:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm the OP.

PayPal has just ruled in the seller's favour as it's not about wrong description/faulty/scam. They informed me that the seller did their job and the good was delivered, so they won! 
Well, I could argue that the seller fails to indicate the waist is not true to size, then to make a appeal. Also, we are talking about the free return provided by the seller, hence I think the responsibility is on them!

I have filed the chargeback with my bank, and hopefully it can be solved.  This card I used is foreign, and the seller might not be registered locally in the UK, so it's a bit tricky too. According to my bank, the chargeback can be under viewed twice if either party is not happy with the outcome. Then the final ruling will be given, so if either party wants to appeal, it will cost 500 USD for Visa, and 600 for MasterCard. My item is just pair of pants about £300, not worthy if the worst case scenario that I lose .

No consumer charge in Uk for chargeback process. But Europe rules are different to other area's around the world.

Cases are reviewed by bank before process is started, as not meeting the regulations is a outright loss & no appeal @ cost to bank.

When you say "Wrong Size" is that a case of they do not fit you, or that you ordered say Large & received Extra large?
As that makes a difference, although with retailer saying they only got a empty box back. Won't change outcome.

Thanks for the reply.

The fees I mentioned is for appeal, after twice of failure.

It was right size sent, but not the standard size compared to this brand or other brands. I think the website failed to mention that.

After PayPal's response and ruling yesterday, now I have big doubts in how they solve the claims. Because it seems:
1. Only faulty/not received/scam/wrong description type of cases are likely be ruled in customer's favour.
2. Even if it's a faulty product, PayPal will need to be informed prior to sending the item back to the seller.

So, now I'm worried about another case of mine.
Late return - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

The seller agreed the return and they seemingly received the items. But they sent an email saying that the products need to be examined so they can decide. In this case, I did not inform PayPal first. So if the seller refuses to refund and I make a claim later, PayPal probably won't rule in my favour as I sent the products back before letting them know?

There is no std sizing as such. Common issue..
So in reality this is a change of mind return

Well, I guess judging from many responses here, customers are not protected at all, if the return is labelled as 'change of mind'. 

You would be protected by PayPal if you had changed your mind within 14 days AND used the PayPal returns process (PayPal take the view they aren't responsible for things done off the platform) as you would have had your refund as soon as the tracking showed you had returned. 

As you arranged the return directly with the seller, your legal protection is that you can take the seller to small claims court for your refund (providing evidence that you complied at all stages, the weight of the parcel if you have it etc), and on the balance of probability (51%) the court will decide if it's more likely you returned the items and they were lost or you returned empty parcels. 

(Oh, and as your question above, SNAD is short for 'significantly not as described' - one of the categories for a PayPal dispute)

Thanks for the explanation.
I didn't know there was such a' only 14 days PayPal return process', and I believe I had passed the time frame when I posted it back.
This is a company based in Europe, not a UK one. I'm not sure if it's easy to go for small claims court that option.