No heat to back boiler pipes

Lil306

ThisIsWeird said:

Lil306 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Ok, sounds like 'gravity' DHW, and pumped CH.
An old system, and needs someone who understands it.
Phew - so you ain't personally sorting it!

Yes sorry. Gravity fed. Not sure what DHW means without looking 

There's a tank in the loft. The hot water goes to it used for the bath and taps. And then if you want radiators you use the pullers to add heat not he back boiler and turn on the pump to cycle around the radiators.

I'm more than happy to do things myself. I'm starting to think it's an air lock of some sort (pipes hot in cupboard but their freezing cold going to the tank) but an engineer has the right tools end of the day safer  

Domestic Hot Water - like your hot cylinder.
This is heated by the back boiler, and doesn't require a pump - the water circulates under 'gravity' ( hot water being less dense, so lighter, so floats upwards).
"If you want rads you use the 'pullers'..." What's a puller?

Ah thank you sorry I wasn't familiar with that Abbreviation. The puller is what we call it. I think it's real name is a flue plate or something, basically it shuts off a portion of the chimney, so instead of your fire heat/fumes going directly up the chimney, it causes the fire to draw the heat at the back of the flue path (Which is front of the boiler) basically heating it up better. 

I've attached a picture below, where you see the chimney pipe, there's a black plate at the top with a hockey puck handle at the front, that's the "puller". Pull it forward it draws heat to the back flue gases path, push it back, it closest off this path

When closesd it makes the fire more aggressive to build up heat

Lil306

ThisIsWeird said:

Hang on - are you sure that IS a new pump? It's the exact same model, and looks in similar condition to the original, right down to the slightly mangled screwdriver slot in the end plug. 

Do you have any details on the first guy's invoice?

And can you add an arrow to where the actual leak was from?

(Tbh, even the 'first' pump wasn't installed fully correctly as I understand it, as the wiring box shouldn't be under the pump in case the pump leaks...)

Sorry for confusion, the pump itself wasn't replaced. The engineer was having problems stopping the water (he eventually did after talking to his boss, and turned the little stop screw to the left). The pump was fitted probably 10 years ago as a replacement for the original that failed and was working fine since. It was basically sprayed water out the right hand side union, and when removed you could see the broken seal on it. 

The engineer basically charged £270 to remove the pump and fit a new seal, and alongside that mess up with the CH portion of the system unbeknowst to us

Lil306

ThisIsWeird said:

Ganga said:

Also is the pump fitted the correct way ,there are arrows on the bottom showing direction of flow.

It's the same pump and fitted the same way, so i presume that bit is ok at least!
They can be fitted pointing at all sorts of angles, vert or horiz, but the motor shaft must be horizontal in any case. 
Ie, that chrome end plug represents one end of the shaft, so that's how to judge 'horizontal shaft'.
I've no idea if slight deviations from horiz are 'ok' in some cases, but it ain't what's recommended. Only if the shaft is horiz will both ends - both bearings - be at the same height, and lubed the same.

That's the bit that bothers me the most. Iv'e found a number of an engineer so made an enqiry for them, my mam is going to ring in the morning if no response. If needs be I'm going to pay for the work to be rectified then deal with it legally, as the plumber realistically imo should have said they weren't qualified rather than just attempt to fix it. 

nofoollikeold

1. ThisIsWeird is quite right, the pump spindle must be horizontal as the water is used to lubricate the bearings.  
2. Also, the electrical connection box should NOT be where leaking water can get onto it.  
3. However, in this case it can be seen that before the work was done, the spindle was not horizontal and the electrical box is under the pump body.  Both problems could be corrected by undoing the four Allen bolts securing the pump housing to the body, and rotating the housing 18 degrees.  The connections could then be slackened and the shaft made horizontal.
4. It would be worth checking if the pump is operating.  Old towel under the pump, pump switched on and undo the big chrome screw in the centre (It is for bleeding air out, but some water always appears).  Gently put a screwdriver (preferably cross head) in.  If the pump is running, you'll feel the screw driver bumping in an out.  It isn't a 100% guarantee the pump is OK, because the impeller could have sheared from its shaft.  

Lil306

Ganga said:

Grundfos recommend that the pump is fitted in a vertical position pumping upwards
this ensures the pump shaft is horizontal to reduce load on the bearings
IF the pump is mounted horizontally the vent plug should be higher than the pipework
this prevents premature wear of the top bearing

I would copy the complete installation sheet but i am having to use a magnifying glass to read it

Take a photo if you'd like with your phone. They're usually high res and you can zoom in. Would be appreciatd either way. Never knew Grundfos was somewhere close to home!

Lil306

nofoollikeold said:

1. ThisIsWeird is quite right, the pump spindle must be horizontal as the water is used to lubricate the bearings.  
2. Also, the electrical connection box should NOT be where leaking water can get onto it.  
3. However, in this case it can be seen that before the work was done, the spindle was not horizontal and the electrical box is under the pump body.  Both problems could be corrected by undoing the four Allen bolts securing the pump housing to the body, and rotating the housing 18 degrees.  The connections could then be slackened and the shaft made horizontal.
4. It would be worth checking if the pump is operating.  Old towel under the pump, pump switched on and undo the big chrome screw in the centre (It is for bleeding air out, but some water always appears).  Gently put a screwdriver (preferably cross head) in.  If the pump is running, you'll feel the screw driver bumping in an out.  It isn't a 100% guarantee the pump is OK, because the impeller could have sheared from its shaft.  

thank you ill look into bleeding the pump if my mam gets nowhere, she's going to ring him in the mornign

ThisIsWeird

nofoollikeold said:

1. ThisIsWeird is quite right, the pump spindle must be horizontal as the water is used to lubricate the bearings.  
2. Also, the electrical connection box should NOT be where leaking water can get onto it.  
3. However, in this case it can be seen that before the work was done, the spindle was not horizontal and the electrical box is under the pump body.  Both problems could be corrected by undoing the four Allen bolts securing the pump housing to the body, and rotating the housing 18 degrees.  The connections could then be slackened and the shaft made horizontal.
4. It would be worth checking if the pump is operating.  Old towel under the pump, pump switched on and undo the big chrome screw in the centre (It is for bleeding air out, but some water always appears).  Gently put a screwdriver (preferably cross head) in.  If the pump is running, you'll feel the screw driver bumping in an out.  It isn't a 100% guarantee the pump is OK, because the impeller could have sheared from its shaft.  

I thought the first pic (original position) showed the pump with its shaft horizontal, whereas the new position clearly has it sloping. But, the first pic may have been taken at a different angle, so it's not conclusive.
It does look as tho' the electrical box - which is in the wrong position - might be fouling the pipe underneath, and that's the reason for the angle. But, rotating the pump body, as NFLO says, is a ten-minute job. Two plumbers have failed to do this.

ThisIsWeird

Lil306 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Lil306 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Ok, sounds like 'gravity' DHW, and pumped CH.
An old system, and needs someone who understands it.
Phew - so you ain't personally sorting it!

Yes sorry. Gravity fed. Not sure what DHW means without looking 

There's a tank in the loft. The hot water goes to it used for the bath and taps. And then if you want radiators you use the pullers to add heat not he back boiler and turn on the pump to cycle around the radiators.

I'm more than happy to do things myself. I'm starting to think it's an air lock of some sort (pipes hot in cupboard but their freezing cold going to the tank) but an engineer has the right tools end of the day safer  

Domestic Hot Water - like your hot cylinder.
This is heated by the back boiler, and doesn't require a pump - the water circulates under 'gravity' ( hot water being less dense, so lighter, so floats upwards).
"If you want rads you use the 'pullers'..." What's a puller?

Ah thank you sorry I wasn't familiar with that Abbreviation. The puller is what we call it. I think it's real name is a flue plate or something, basically it shuts off a portion of the chimney, so instead of your fire heat/fumes going directly up the chimney, it causes the fire to draw the heat at the back of the flue path (Which is front of the boiler) basically heating it up better. 

I've attached a picture below, where you see the chimney pipe, there's a black plate at the top with a hockey puck handle at the front, that's the "puller". Pull it forward it draws heat to the back flue gases path, push it back, it closest off this path

When closesd it makes the fire more aggressive to build up heat

Ah, I see.
Yes, it dramatically increases the flame area to the boiler surface.
So, for CH, you pull the puller, and flick a switch to turn the pump on?
Just a manual switch? There isn't a pipe thermostat on the flow that will automatically turn on the pump when hot water is detected, and keep the pump running on override until the heat is back down to a safe level?
Blimey. I'd hate to have to control this. Does it often 'bang' and 'shudder'?!

ThisIsWeird

Oops - I was wrong...

A slight incline towards the bleed screw is ok. (This is a Grundfos, but they are very similar)

Ganga

Lil306 said:

Ganga said:

Grundfos recommend that the pump is fitted in a vertical position pumping upwards
this ensures the pump shaft is horizontal to reduce load on the bearings
IF the pump is mounted horizontally the vent plug should be higher than the pipework
this prevents premature wear of the top bearing

I would copy the complete installation sheet but i am having to use a magnifying glass to read it

Take a photo if you'd like with your phone. They're usually high res and you can zoom in. Would be appreciatd either way. Never knew Grundfos was somewhere close to home!

The factory is in Sunderland where they used to produce 1000,s of circulators ( posh name for Central Heating pumps ) they shifted production of the circulators to China but still make loads of other pumps ,i bought 2 pumps years ago from a relative who worked there and forgot i have a brand new one in the shed ,ironic as we now have a combi boiler and they took out the old pipework along with the Grundfos pump.