No heat to back boiler pipes

Lil306

Trying to keep any personal feelings out of this because my mother is now almost £300 lighter and in a worse off position after a so called professional attended. My apologies as this is going to be long as hell I feel. I may put up a video to explain better when I'm more awake

Pre context : system was fully working prior to below

Context : My mam has a solid fuel coal fire (parkray paragon) I believe with a back boiler. There was a leak from the domestic central heating pump (right hand side) when fitted to the system the text is upside down when you look at it. I suspected a seal. So emergency plumber was called out. 

After : Engineer attended. They had zero knowledge on back boiler design basically. They wanted to drain the system had to be intervened at stopped because fire was on and they weren't aware back boilers can blow. Water supply was cut off at stop tap. There's also a couple of stop handles near the boiler but these seem to do nothing. Maybe a shut off from the boiler behind the fire possibly and hot water was drained using taps (unsure if fully until we stopped them). I have turned these all the way to the left as im working on left is open and right is closed (ive tried half way too). They seem to do nothing and have no markings for open or closed. Eventually part was removed and the seals were replaced and engineer refitted. Again for context the pump was refitted but not in the same angle it was prior I'm unsure if domestic heating pumps are bothered about this or get airlock but just want to note in case this is potential cause of problem. Previously it was straight now it's facing up at an angle. 

Problem : After all fitted the normal pipes that would warm up are cold. My mam says you'd normally feel heat after about 30 mins. Checking the pipes in the cupboard. There's two 22mm pipes. One of them is really hot and the other luke warm. I suspect that these are the hot water to the tank in the loft and the hot water return from the tank. The other pipes there's a smaller set of pipes directly behind each one both cold. 

My mam normally feels a pipe in the house and she says it runs to the tank but this is about 15mm. This is stone cold whilst the 22mm is hot. So I'm not sure if it's linked somewhere into the central heating side of things as a T connection to the pump. There is a pipe which joins it but I'm unsure atm. She put the pullers on and the pipes didn't get warm after leaving them running for 5 mins




I've tried bleeding the radiators but they're all full. No air just water comes out cold obv. So I'm a bit unsure atm. 

The only thing I can think of (without something major. I dont beleive solid fuel parkray have a heat exchanger. I thinkits literally just copper pipes behind the fire that get heater) is an air lock. Theres water cut off somewhere. The angle of the pump is introducing a problem ( doubtful). Or maybe there's no water getting into the back boiler or it's dry somehow (doubting but I'm not a plumber). Or maybe it has to feed water into the hot water tank and because it was drained it has to refill the entire system and heat up the full system again 

Not prepared to spend anymore money after the engineer attended and fubard the system. So looking for possible hints atm on most likely causes and I'll go from there. 

The one thing I'm considering doing is replacing the stop handle with something like a Pembler lever type just for simplicity because it makes it easier to know when everything is open or closed

Thank you

Lil306

These are the pics. First pic is the pump prior to removal. The 2nd and 3rd pics are as it is now

My mam notes yesterday that all the radiators were freezing cold so it could have been the tank has been off for a while. She is running the fire on low now to refill the tank up with water as test  just in case the pipes have simply been related to no hot water remaining in the system 

The 2nd and 3rd pictures below show the pipes. The lower pipe with white marks is hot which I believe is the hot water feed to the tank in the attic the one directly behind it higher up I believe is the hot water return

The other two pipes are cold but should be heating up supposedly.  The lower one and one connected to the pump

I'll be able to feed more info when I get home from work to see if it has worked or not. The two smaller pipes go straight behind the fire room the one connected to the pump has a stop tap so I think it's her from the main water feed. I suspect similar cold water on and hot water out scenario.  Although I believe the pump is used to circulate the hot water. So as a guess I would suspect the piece which has a little T joining both pipes the top one is cold water supply 

Sorry for spelling I'm on my phone 

ThisIsWeird

Photo of the pump, please? Yes, these have a few acceptable installation positions and angles.
You mum's system is hardly common, so you need someone completely familiar with them. Are these coal-fired boilers fairly common in your area? If so, there will also be plumbers who are familiar with them, so ask on, say, a local Fb page for recommendations. Or, if you know other folk who have them, ask them who they use.
I would expect some alarming noises and bangs if the water wasn't flowing through the boiler. Not sure what would happen if the boiler was just empty, tho'.
Once you have someone out who knows what they are doing, ask them to explain what they have found carried out by the first fellow. If it's as concerning as it sounds, then sue for the amount above the pump replacement - ie everything they got wrong.
Very primitive systems had 'direct' cylinders where the boiler water mixed with that of the boiler, but surely none now, so why he was draining down using a hot tap I cannot work out.
I think I'd have to caution against DIYing this, at least unless its layout is fully understood, and every stopcock/gatevalve ditto. Far too scary. Once a fire is lit, and things start to rumble, there is no 'off' switch. And a gatevalve fitted in the wrong place could be a 'problem'. 
The system needs to be 100% understood.
(No valves fitted to the pump to allow its removal without draining down?)

FreeBear

Zero need to drain the system down if you are only replacing the pump - There are valves either side that you turn the handle (or slot with a screwdriver). This isolates the pump, which can then be removed, just make sure there is a container below to catch a bit of water. if you need to replace the valves, then yes, the heating will need to be drained.

If the pump is working, and the system full of water, it is probable that one or both valves either side of the pump have not been opened. Easy enough to check yourself (no need to pay a plumber). There appears to be two gate valves on the right hand side of the pump - Make sure both of these are open (turn the knob anticlockwise).

ThisIsWeird

Ah! Photos!

Hmmm. That pump does have valves, so there was no need to drain the system - provided the issue was just a leaking pump. It's possible, tho', that one of the pump valves was faulty so needed replacing, so that would require a drain-down.

But - argh - that pump is fitted incorrectly. The pump's shaft should - must - be horizontal. That one is angled upwards, which likely means the upper bearing will be running dry & won't be lubricated; its life will almost certainly be greatly reduced. I don't know if it has any greater bearing (fnurrrr) than this, like it won't even work properly?

Lil, you need someone who understands that sort of system - I certainly cannot speculate on the plumbing from these photos, and I would suggest you don't mess with the valves. 

Ask the new person to write a few notes on what they found, and then deduct the cost of the actual pump from the first guy's £300 bill, and tell them you want a refund minus that sum (ie - you'll pay for the actual new pump).

If/when he says 'no', tell him you will sue and you will win. And you'll write honest reviews on every available site you can find, especially locally. 

NB: This all depends on what the new plumber says. I don't want to overstate the first guy's failings, 'cos I obviously don't know.

Do you, or your mum, have Legal Protection on your house insurance?

ThisIsWeird

Hang on - are you sure that IS a new pump? It's the exact same model, and looks in similar condition to the original, right down to the slightly mangled screwdriver slot in the end plug. 

Do you have any details on the first guy's invoice?

And can you add an arrow to where the actual leak was from?

(Tbh, even the 'first' pump wasn't installed fully correctly as I understand it, as the wiring box shouldn't be under the pump in case the pump leaks...)

Lil306

Just to answer all questions. Bit slow on phone

House insurance. I have none. Mam probably. 

Engineer. I'll be doing my own research. She was in a panic to get it sorted so Google voice searched for an engineer so rang the first 5 star recommended one. I'd rather check and vetted for solid fuel ones as I'm more tech savvy. I'm more inclined to fix myself. I work on the basis of what's changed since it was touched and the angle of the pump was the first thing I noticed

Pump. The spot where it leaked was from the valve side (neatest the fire) at the big brass nut. When it was removed. There was lock off valves with screwdriver and to the right so could change without draining. The seal was damaged. It basically had a broke  seal that  needed replacing. The pump was reinstalled at orginal orientation as when it was working (except the angle) 

The pump wasn't installed by the engineer. Just reinstalled after the repair. He didn't understand and had to ring his boss as he wanted to drain the system with the fire lit and his boss said that he couldn't turn the pump off with the fire lit. Or rather drain the system as the fire had to be off. 

The pump my mam had fitted was a replacement of the original. Original was probably about 15 years old . This pump has been installed this way for at least 6 or 7 years prior to the seal failing on it. 

Gate valves.  They bother me more because there doesn't appear to he any shut off  I fully turned them left anyway just on the off chance one of them was closes. I text my mam about 15 mins ago and she says the pipes in the cabinet are warm/hot but there's no heat to the pipes going upstairs. 

My first thought is the pump or the isolation valve to the left of it hasn't been opened properly. When he reinstalled the pump this was leaking slightly and he adjusted it and it stopped. As a note the valve looks like _ rather than | orientation so my assumption is that the gate is open

At the moment I'm working on the basis of a of valve or pumps installation. I tried finding a manual (Grundfos TF110C Class F) if anyone can find one to read about installation angle as that was the first thing that came to mind when I looked at it

Ganga

I did not think that the Grundfos could be fitted at the  "wrong " angle ,i have seen them fitted horizontally and vertically ,you used to have to take the big plug out of the centre to bleed them as they run fully flooded.
The first thing i would check is the pump running ?are the valves open and start from there.
I used to have a brand new Grundfos pump in the shed ( i bought it when a relative worked at the factory in Sunderland on the chance that ours might go at some time ) i will have a look shortly and see if it mentions pump angles.

Ganga

Also is the pump fitted the correct way ,there are arrows on the bottom showing direction of flow.

Ganga

Grundfos recommend that the pump is fitted in a vertical position pumping upwards
this ensures the pump shaft is horizontal to reduce load on the bearings
IF the pump is mounted horizontally the vent plug should be higher than the pipework
this prevents premature wear of the top bearing

I would copy the complete installation sheet but i am having to use a magnifying glass to read it

ThisIsWeird

Ganga said:

Also is the pump fitted the correct way ,there are arrows on the bottom showing direction of flow.

It's the same pump and fitted the same way, so i presume that bit is ok at least!
They can be fitted pointing at all sorts of angles, vert or horiz, but the motor shaft must be horizontal in any case. 
Ie, that chrome end plug represents one end of the shaft, so that's how to judge 'horizontal shaft'.
I've no idea if slight deviations from horiz are 'ok' in some cases, but it ain't what's recommended. Only if the shaft is horiz will both ends - both bearings - be at the same height, and lubed the same.