Secondhand Car issues

Snowflake101

We bought a second hand car from a dealer in September with a 3 month warranty on. In October it developed a fault that put it into limp mode meaning it couldn’t be driven. With some back and forward with the dealer they eventually came to collect it on 1st November to repair it. We were weeks without a car as they took ages to get us a courtesy car. We have a disabled daughter and a very young baby and live somewhere there is no public transport so we cannot survive with no car. 

The car has done 110k miles when we bought it and the part that causes the fault should have been replaced quite some time before we bought it. The garage told us they would clean out the part rather than replace as they said it was pointless replacing the part as the fault would keep occurring as the majority of our driving is under local and therefore under 40 miles an hour in speed. The parts costs around £700 I believe so they said they would not replace it. They kept the car for a couple of weeks, constantly trying new ways to clean the part out, then test driving it and trying to get the error code to stop appearing. 

They did offer to take the car back and give a full refund but we could not accept this because we can only drive an automatic and need a 7 seater and they are rarer than hen’s teeth. We looked around for one and couldn’t find one so said we need them to repair the car. For context to find this car we had to go to a dealer 90 minutes drive away. 

Eventually we got the car back towards the end of November and all was well. Until yesterday when lo and behold fault comes back, car in limp mode and we now can’t drive it. We did keep looking for a replacement car right up until the 3 month warranty ran out but absolutely nothing came up and we weren’t being fussy.

Car is on finance, we paid a small £100 deposit on a credit card. 

Do we have any redress here or are we just screwed? 

Veteransaver

This part they keep cleaning, is it the dpf by chance? The need regular fast revs whilst driving to regenerate themselves, it should tell you what to do in the manual.

Grumpy_chap

Snowflake101 said:

We bought a second hand car from a dealer in September with a 3 month warranty on. In October it developed a fault that put it into limp mode meaning it couldn’t be driven. With some back and forward with the dealer they eventually came to collect it on 1st November to repair it. We were weeks without a car as they took ages to get us a courtesy car. We have a disabled daughter and a very young baby and live somewhere there is no public transport so we cannot survive with no car. 

The car has done 110k miles when we bought it and the part that causes the fault should have been replaced quite some time before we bought it. The garage told us they would clean out the part rather than replace as they said it was pointless replacing the part as the fault would keep occurring as the majority of our driving is under local and therefore under 40 miles an hour in speed. The parts costs around £700 I believe so they said they would not replace it. They kept the car for a couple of weeks, constantly trying new ways to clean the part out, then test driving it and trying to get the error code to stop appearing. 

They did offer to take the car back and give a full refund but we could not accept this because we can only drive an automatic and need a 7 seater and they are rarer than hen’s teeth. We looked around for one and couldn’t find one so said we need them to repair the car. For context to find this car we had to go to a dealer 90 minutes drive away. 

Eventually we got the car back towards the end of November and all was well. Until yesterday when lo and behold fault comes back, car in limp mode and we now can’t drive it. We did keep looking for a replacement car right up until the 3 month warranty ran out but absolutely nothing came up and we weren’t being fussy.

Car is on finance, we paid a small £100 deposit on a credit card. 

Do we have any redress here or are we just screwed? 

Is it a diesel car?
Is the part the dpf?  (diesel particulate filter)
Where "the majority of our driving is under local and therefore under 40 miles an hour" you need a petrol car and not a diesel.
The solution would be to add regular half-hour motorway blasts into your car use and then exchange the car for a petrol at the earliest opportunity.

Did the Dealer know your usage pattern when you purchased the car?

TELLIT01

I don't know if the OP has weakened their claim by refusing the offer of a complete refund on the car.

Aylesbury_Duck

I can't add much to the good advice given.  It does sound as if it's a diesel and probably a DPF problem or perhaps an EGR valve if it's an older diesel (110k miles suggests it might be)?  The EGR chambers get sooted up and restrict flow, and the valve itself can stick open or closed, which would perhaps put the car in limp mode.  The source is similar for both - the wrong sort of mileage for that type of car.  As others have said, you need to be getting the engine hot, typically on a longer, harder run.  Tootling about locally will cause problems, and I can't see what the dealer has done wrong, unless you told them about your usage pattern and they recommended the car?

Having rejected a full refund the first time it happened, and the problem seemingly being "user error" rather than an inherent fault, I think your routes to redress are limited.  They sound like a good, helpful dealer and while you can't force them to replace the part if it's not faulty (and a new one soon will be anyway if as I suspect, your driving pattern is the problem) or continue to clean it, you clearly don't want to surrender the car even if they were to offer to take it back and part-refund.  

I think the solution here is to ask them to clean the part again (you may have to pay for that) and ask for their help sourcing a car that's a better fit for your driving pattern.  Perhaps they'll be happy to do that and part-exchange this one when they do?  While that search continues, you'll have to as Grumpy_chap suggests, and incorporate a hard run into your driving regularly to keep the DPF and/or EGR clean.  There are products you can add to the fuel tank to help with DPF and EGR cleaning, too.  My garage recommends sticking a full tank of the premium diesel in every three months, to help keep things clean.

Snowflake101

Yes it’s the DPF. I had the exact same car some years ago and had no issues with it once the DPF was replaced by the dealer. 

We don’t have access to a motorway in our county. But have been taking it on the dual carriageway for at least 45 minutes per week as advised by the garage. 

We refused the refund because there were no cars available anywhere within budget within a 6 hour drive from us at the time and we continued to look right up until the warranty expired.

Our daughter has weekly medical appointments and therapies and we simply need a car as they aren’t accessible on public transport. 

The dealer would have known the car wasn’t suitable due to the county we live in and the dealer being in the same county. 

We have a friend who runs a garage so we will get it booked in to get it cleaned yet again and then I guess speak to the dealer and see if they can help source a replacement and take this as part ex. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Snowflake101 said:

Yes it’s the DPF. I had the exact same car some years ago and had no issues with it once the DPF was replaced by the dealer. 

We don’t have access to a motorway in our county. But have been taking it on the dual carriageway for at least 45 minutes per week as advised by the garage. 

We refused the refund because there were no cars available anywhere within budget within a 6 hour drive from us at the time and we continued to look right up until the warranty expired.

Our daughter has weekly medical appointments and therapies and we simply need a car as they aren’t accessible on public transport. 

The dealer would have known the car wasn’t suitable due to the county we live in and the dealer being in the same county. 

We have a friend who runs a garage so we will get it booked in to get it cleaned yet again and then I guess speak to the dealer and see if they can help source a replacement and take this as part ex. 

I don't think you could rely on that if it came to it.  They can't be expected to know your mileage pattern based on your postcode.  Unless you specifically said: "We need a car of a type suitable for many and frequent short journeys", they haven't wilfully and negligently sold you something unsuitable.

As I understand them, DPFs clog up over time, so of course your older car would run fine once the clogged DPF was replaced.  It would have become someone else's problem once you sold it.  The dealer has given you the option to replace the DPF so that's another option you have, making sure you continue to do those hard runs weekly.  It might be expensive but it's going to be cheaper than selling the car and buying another one.

400ixl

The DPF filter does not have a scheduled life, so there is no fixed time at which it should have been replaced.

Also lots of the advice given here is not actually correct. If you are driving the car for a decent amount of time (20 minutes plus) at least every 200 miles then a DPF can regenerate even at lower revs / speeds. However if you are not doing sufficient long journeys then you get partial regens which can cause issues as the soot will still build up. Ideally it needs 20 minute plus runs at a decent rev range, but the later is less important than the former.

There are two types of build up in a DPF, firstly the soot which is the first stage that gets burnt off. The second is ash which can be more troublesome should it build up.

Most cars have the ability to report contents of both through diagnostic systems that can be plugged in.

The other factor is whether a regen is even being called by the system. It is often that there is a problem with one of the sensors which stops the system running a regen. If this is the issue then it doesn't matter what you do with the DPF, it will soon fill up again and you are wasting money.

Step 1 would be to have the car scanned for fault codes to see if any issues are found. If they are found, then fix those first
Step 2 read out the soot and ash levels
Step 3 would be to then do a forced regen if the soot level is the issue to get it mobile (and if step 1 found a fault and it has been fixed then monitor). If the ash level is also above tolerance, it may be worth cleaning it out.
Step 4 if the soot level stays within tolerance with regens but the ash level remains high then it could be time to look at replacing the DPF

The scan for sensor failures takes 10 minutes, fixes may take a few days to get the part, fix and test
A forced regen takes 30 minutes

Snowflake101

We have taken legal advice from CAB/trading standards and apparently we should have gone straight to the finance company as it's their responsibility. They will still have to sort the issue out so we have started that process with them. 

I never knew that if you buy a car on straight forward finance they are responsible for sorting any issues with the car so that's something for people to be aware of if they didn't already know. Fingers crossed this gets sorted asap.

sheramber

Snowflake101 said:

We have taken legal advice from CAB/trading standards and apparently we should have gone straight to the finance company as it's their responsibility. They will still have to sort the issue out so we have started that process with them. 

I never knew that if you buy a car on straight forward finance they are responsible for sorting any issues with the car so that's something for people to be aware of if they didn't already know. Fingers crossed this gets sorted asap.

The finance company own the car until you pay off the finance. As such, they are responsible in the event that you cannot resolve the situation with garage.
The finance company will contact the garage and decide whether they support your complaint or not.

Aylesbury_Duck

Snowflake101 said:

We have taken legal advice from CAB/trading standards and apparently we should have gone straight to the finance company as it's their responsibility. They will still have to sort the issue out so we have started that process with them. 

I never knew that if you buy a car on straight forward finance they are responsible for sorting any issues with the car so that's something for people to be aware of if they didn't already know. Fingers crossed this gets sorted asap.

I hope they can help, but I fear you're being too optimistic.  The equal liability doesn't mean they just pay out, they will likely follow exactly the same process as the dealer, almost certainly liaising with the dealer directly.  They're not going to wade in and refund you straight away, they may even determine the dealer has done nothing wrong and that the fault is user-created.