Is BlockShaft or any other kind of integrated mechanical anttitheft device available in the UK?

born_again

SouthLondonUser said:

A sold-secure motorcycle diamond u-lock like the Hiplok DX1000 would probably take about 10 minutes with a portable angle grinder, and multiple spare batteries and discs (Bennets has a nice video and review on it).

Which is why 2 people simply throw them in the back of a van..

forgotmyname

born_again said:

SouthLondonUser said:

A sold-secure motorcycle diamond u-lock like the Hiplok DX1000 would probably take about 10 minutes with a portable angle grinder, and multiple spare batteries and discs (Bennets has a nice video and review on it).

Which is why 2 people simply throw them in the back of a van..

And what professional thief uses a small 6" angle grinder with £1 discs?  If you wanted to be quick and gone you would get a
9" 36v one like the Makita with a decent cutting disc.

forgotmyname

SouthLondonUser said:

As for the lock picking lawyer's device, do you have a link?

I do not know why that device was not mentioned in the hiplok reviews. It can be any combination of:

• it's an evil conspiracy
• reviewers genuinely didn't know about it
• not particularly relevant because, like lock picking, it's not much of an issue

The point remains the same: all locks can be defeated, and the fact that this lock can be defeated in a certain way doesn't negate the fact that it remains much more secure than most others.

You would need to search his videos, it was a while back and he was testing U locks and similar styles of locks and made a device that
simply pushes the lock apart. He uses simple threaded rods but a small hydraulic cylinder would be faster and offer greater force.

SouthLondonUser

forgotmyname said:

born_again said:

SouthLondonUser said:

A sold-secure motorcycle diamond u-lock like the Hiplok DX1000 would probably take about 10 minutes with a portable angle grinder, and multiple spare batteries and discs (Bennets has a nice video and review on it).

Which is why 2 people simply throw them in the back of a van..

And what professional thief uses a small 6" angle grinder with £1 discs?  If you wanted to be quick and gone you would get a
9" 36v one like the Makita with a decent cutting disc.

What makes you think the discs used in the tests were £1 discs?

Again, the point is not whether the ulocks can be defeated (anything can) but if diamond-rated ulocks are safer than the others - and, yes, they are.

SouthLondonUser

born_again said:

SouthLondonUser said:

A sold-secure motorcycle diamond u-lock like the Hiplok DX1000 would probably take about 10 minutes with a portable angle grinder, and multiple spare batteries and discs (Bennets has a nice video and review on it).

Which is why 2 people simply throw them in the back of a van..

That is of course a risk, but not every single motorcycle theft happens that way.

Again, I fail to see the logic of this kind of reasoning. Security devices are about reducing risk, but risk can never be eliminated 100%.

What are you trying to say? That any security can be defeated? I knew that already.

Are you implying there is no difference between a lock that is cut in 5 seconds and one that is cut in 6 minutes? I disagree, there is a huge difference

forgotmyname

SouthLondonUser said:

What makes you think the discs used in the tests were £1 discs?

Again, the point is not whether the ulocks can be defeated (anything can) but if diamond-rated ulocks are safer than the others - and, yes, they are.

What makes me think they are £1 discs, probably the name on the side of the disc. Pack of 12 for £10.

A locks rating is meaningless if it can be ignored and the thief gets the goods. Whether the lock takes seconds or hours to cut

is meaningless if the thief does not need to attack the lock or cut the lock.

I would say that lifting the bike into a van is the biggest risk. Maybe you have figures to suggest otherwise?  Seems the easiest
option with the least risk to me.

SouthLondonUser

On diamond discs: the Bennets guy's conclusion is that very few thieves use them (most use the kit nicked at the back of a van) and, regardless, cutting hardened steel is easier with ordinary discs. In his tests, he needed fewer diamond discs (just 1) but it still took longer than changing multiple ordinary discs. He talks about it in this section: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-uewbvII_c&t=893s

I don't know anything about cutting metal so I have no idea if he's talking nonsense.

On £1 discs: did you mean that £1 discs were used in the video above?

Of course loading a bike onto a van is a big risk. That is why I leave a big heavy chain tied to a lamppost near work. This way I secure it to a fixed object at home and at work. When I'm out and about I cannot carry a 3-metre, 20 kg chain with me, so I have to rely on just a ulock blocking the wheel.

Again, what you lot seem unable or unwilling to appreciate is the point about reducing risk, while being unable to eliminate it completely.

If a diamond-rated ulock does nothing in some cases (vans) but reduces the risk in others (bolt croppers and angle grinder attacks) then it will have reduced the risk overall. It is such an incredibly banal and self-evident concept that I struggle to understand why we are even mentioning it.

I do not have exact figures but I remember conversations with the Met at their safe riding course, and they were saying that angle grinders were the #1 type of attacks, and that theft with vans happen but are rarer. After all it makes sense: anyone can hop on a (stolen) moped, put an angle grinder in a bag, and roam around the city. Getting hold of a van is not impossible but a tad harder; not everyone has a van, sure you can steal it but more and more vans have trackers and stealing a moped remains easier than stealing a van, if you get caught it's much harder to escape with a van than a moped, etc.

Again, it's all about probability and risk. Do diamond-rated ulocks eliminate risk 100%? Of course not. Do they reduce it? Yes.

It's like saying: locking the front door is usless because a thief could wait for you to get back and point a gun at you. yes, it can happen, but how often does it happen? A good lock doesn't protect against that kind of attack, but it still reduces the overall risk...

facade

It seems to me that there are 4 groups of criminals

1) the professional thief. Nothing is going to stop them stealing your car, bike or breaking into your house to take your ming vase, or pokemon collection. They simply scope out the target, and come back with the means to defeat whatever security is in place.

2) Organised thieves. these are the gangs sent out with a van with cutters/grinders/hammers, freezer spray etc. (pretty much whatever they steal out of plumber's/builder's/gas fitter's vans) They steal expensive 'bikes by quickly breaking whatever stops them being lifted and slinging them into the van to work on somewhere else.

Or the gangs that turn up with a relay box or canbus tool to steal your car, but are happy to break into your house and threaten the cat to get the keys if they can't steal it without.

A really good lock that takes a while to break/cut may put the bike thieves off in a public place, but won't stop them.

Good visible mechanical security may put the car thieves off, but if they are on a mission with a quota, it depends on whether they have the time for a break in, or to defeat the mechanical locks, or they just move to an alternative.

3) Old fashioned professional thieves. These are skilled and will be able to quickly pick a "secure" lock. They are rare nowadays, most break-ins are by smashing things, it is much quicker, and with zero Police response fairly low risk. A good lock is just a challenge, whether they accept depends on the prize.

4) opportunists/amateurs. These are the biggest group. They have no real skills, and rely on smashing stuff or take unprotected things (like a car idling on the drive to defrost the windows). They are the ones who snap the eurolock on your front door to get in and steal things to sell for drug money. They might have a pair of bolt cutters for dealing with thin chains. Decent security (anti-snap locks, decent chains, a disklok etc.) will keep them out as there is always an easier target.

So we come to the original topic of the blockshaft.

Will it stop group1? not a chance.

group 2? it might put them off, or they might simply aim for the keys, or if it became common enough a specific picker/decoder would just be part of their kit.

group 3? IMHO, they aren't a problem with car theft.

group 4- absolutely

I think the reason we don't see them is partly a lack of decent marketing, plus they represent incredibly poor value for money when compared to something like a disklok. They are hundreds of euros, plus fitting- which won't be cheap.

Also if the car is on PCP/lease it is going back in a couple of years anyway (so even less VFM), and you simply can't go around permanently modifying the steering column on someone else's car.

I have a disklok- yes a professional could easily open the lock, or know how to cut it open, or even manoeuvre the car onto a truck with it on, or suspended tow the car away, but it puts off group 4, which are by far the most numerous.

The biggest disadvantage is what would happen if the car tipped upside down*, and the heavy unsecured disklok could fly around.

*modern cars always tip upside down for no apparent reason. You see them upside down on the pavement in towns, and upside down alongside perfectly straight smooth roads. I have no idea how the drivers manage to do it. In The Olden Days you saw plenty of cars through hedges and in ditches, but they were normally the right way up!

SouthLondonUser

Yes, which brings us back to the original question, which no one seems willing or able to answer: without disputing the self-evident banality that anything can be defeated, how does the blockshaft compare vs the round disclock, the stoplock bar, or wheel clamps?

Again, it is just curiosity for its own sake.

My guess is that it is probably more secure than the stoplock bar but I have no idea how it compares vs the round disclock that covers the entire steering wheel. Maybe similarly hard to cut or break? It is certainly easier and more convenient to use - the disclock is heavy, takes space in the boot etc.

I am certainly shocked by the fact that 'innovation' has actually made some high-end cars easier, not harder, to steal, like with relaying the signal of the keyless key. It boggles the mind and reinforces my idea that keyless is a useless gimmick, a solution looking for a problem to solve.

As for cars tipping upside down, I suspect a big factor is the stupid trend of taller heavier and bigger SUVs, some so tall that the bonnet is higher than some primary school age children.  There are plenty of videos online of Range Rovers rear-ending another  car at slow speed and tipping over. But buyers are stupid and manufacturers give stupid customers the stupid products they want.

Have a look at 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

facade

SouthLondonUser said:

Yes, which brings us back to the original question, which no one seems willing or able to answer: without disputing the self-evident banality that anything can be defeated, how does the blockshaft compare vs the round disclock, the stoplock bar, or wheel clamps?

<snip>

We can't answer that, because we haven't tested them.  And any of the publicised "tests" are biased to give the result they want- you'd hardly get the lockpicking Lawyer to pick open that U lock in 10 seconds when they are trying to show that Dave with his Aldi portable grinder takes 10 minutes to cut it. (admittedly, it is more likely to be Dave trying to steal your 'bike than the Lockpicking Lawyer though....)

What is needed are statistics like how many vehicles are stolen with them fitted out of the population that have them fitted (in similar areas)

I suppose the acid test is which of them do insurers offer a discount for having, or require you to have to get a quote.