Is BlockShaft or any other kind of integrated mechanical anttitheft device available in the UK?

SouthLondonUser

@forgotmyname Apologies if I was unclear. Of course I don't expect you to spell out on a public forum how to break these safety devices!

May I just ask you, since you seem to know way more than me, how you would rank these security systems from safest to least safe?

• the Blockshaft
• the disclock(the round metal thing that covers the entire steering wheel)
• the stoplock (the yellow metal bar that attaches to the steering wheel)
• an external clamp; these are rare, but I have seen a few people clamping their own cars

I guess the stoplock is possibly one of the least secure, because one could easily cut a small part of the steering wheel. How the others rank, I don't know.

Even if the Blockshaft and the disklock were to be comparable, the blockshaft is much easier and convenient to use -- but a pain to install, and it might probably void your warranty.

Of course 100% security doesn't exist, anything can be defeated, but not anything can be defeated quickly in most scenarios.

E.g. a £30 bicycle u-lock can be opened with bolt-cropper or an angle grinder in a few seconds.

A sold-secure motorcycle diamond u-lock like the Hiplok DX1000 would probably take about 10 minutes with a portable angle grinder, and multiple spare batteries and discs (Bennets has a nice video and review on it).

forgotmyname

Had to look up the DX1000 and again the reviews all rush to attack with an angle grinder. Send one to the LockPickingLawyer
who will attack the keyway first but will attack with other methods if he spots a weak point. Videos I watched none of them
seemed to use a decent DIAMOND blade?

Those types of locks the weak point is often an outwards pressure/force, will it take a 4 ton+ outwards force without failing?


What is best depends on what your trying to secure and how much money/time/effort/inconvenience your willing to expend.

Fit the disclock and also add a pedal lock and gear lever lock and also add wheel clamps to all wheels. 
High Cost, time and effort and even worse for inconvenience.

Many cars have deadlocks and immobilisers and steering locks as standard, if a wireless key is the weak point in that
setup then disable the key.   Cost minimal, time/effort/inconvenience virtually nothing.

What are you trying to achieve and what car?  If the car is desirable whats to stop a towtruck lifting it away?

SouthLondonUser

@forgotmyname That doesn't answer the question, though.

For my current car I use a yellow stoplock bar, which I think is a reasonable compromise of bulk, safety and convenience. I know safer options exist, but they are bulkier and more fiddly to install.
I am not going to change the car any time soon.

Mine is just genuine curiosity on how the 4 security systems mentioned in the previous post compare and rank, from safest to least safe - this is the question.

I know anything can be defeated (but not anything can be defeated in the same time and with the same ease).
I know that clamping all 4 wheels, installing a round disclock, and digging a moat around the car and filling it with crocodiles would be even safer, but none of these is the question...

As for the Hiplok DX1000:

I genuinely do not understand why, in most discussions on these new, safer ulocks (there are only 4 motorcycle diamond rated ulocks), so many people love to rubbish them.
The point is not if they can be defeated (anything can), but if they are safer than traditional u-locks (they are).
The point is not if they reduce the risk by 100% (nothing can), but if they reduce it enough to represent a reasonable compromise of cost, safety, (in)convenience.

The Bennets guy addresses diamond blades and thinks they don't make much difference.
He also mentions in many of his reviews that he's aware that someone like the LockPickingLawyer could probably pick open these locks, but he has regular conversations about bike theft with police forces and they all mention lock-picking is not a huge issue. 

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/security/motorcycle-chains-and-locks/hiplok-dx1000-review-home-away-security

Ganga

My ex boss used to have a gear lever lock fitted to his Audi ,it was garage fitted and worked by putting the car in  reverse ( i think ) and fitting a key locked clamp round the gear lever and a bracket fitted to the floor of the car ,looked quite robust but i know nearly all deterrents can be overcome but if it makes the casual thief move on to another car worth it. 

forgotmyname

Ganga said:

My ex boss used to have a gear lever lock fitted to his Audi ,it was garage fitted and worked by putting the car in  reverse ( i think ) and fitting a key locked clamp round the gear lever and a bracket fitted to the floor of the car ,looked quite robust but i know nearly all deterrents can be overcome but if it makes the casual thief move on to another car worth it. 

I had one of those on an old Automatic where it almost works, guy at the scrappies said they are rubbish for manual cars because the gear lever
can often be pushed forwards far enough to remove. I was thinking nah the lever only goes part of the way, but he showed me how far they can
travel when you dont care about the car.. Foot on the gear lever and yanked the lock upwards to remove it.. Only sloppy gearchange later it can
be driven away.

He said some auto's with cables rather than rods can sometimes be forced further forward and the park position.

Ectophile

SouthLondonUser said:

@forgotmyname That doesn't answer the question, though.

For my current car I use a yellow stoplock bar, which I think is a reasonable compromise of bulk, safety and convenience. I know safer options exist, but they are bulkier and more fiddly to install.
I am not going to change the car any time soon.

Mine is just genuine curiosity on how the 4 security systems mentioned in the previous post compare and rank, from safest to least safe - this is the question.

I know anything can be defeated (but not anything can be defeated in the same time and with the same ease).
I know that clamping all 4 wheels, installing a round disclock, and digging a moat around the car and filling it with crocodiles would be even safer, but none of these is the question...

As for the Hiplok DX1000:

I genuinely do not understand why, in most discussions on these new, safer ulocks (there are only 4 motorcycle diamond rated ulocks), so many people love to rubbish them.
The point is not if they can be defeated (anything can), but if they are safer than traditional u-locks (they are).
The point is not if they reduce the risk by 100% (nothing can), but if they reduce it enough to represent a reasonable compromise of cost, safety, (in)convenience.

The Bennets guy addresses diamond blades and thinks they don't make much difference.
He also mentions in many of his reviews that he's aware that someone like the LockPickingLawyer could probably pick open these locks, but he has regular conversations about bike theft with police forces and they all mention lock-picking is not a huge issue. 

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/security/motorcycle-chains-and-locks/hiplok-dx1000-review-home-away-security

People often fixate on how strong a lock is, and ignore its resistance to picking.  A previous poster has already mentioned the LockPickingLawyer https://www.youtube.com/@lockpickinglawyer

All too often, an apparently secure device can be picked in seconds by someone who knows what they are doing.

And I should add that I have no experience of the Hiplok DX1000, and don't wish to imply that their lock is useless, if their lawyers are reading this.

forgotmyname

If the Bennetts guy "thinks" a diamond blade won't make any difference why did he not prove it using the piece he already cut?
Some of the blades looked like cheap ones you buy in bulk.
Cheap cutoff disc maybe 20 minutes where a really high end one maybe 2 or 3. Maybe there is a better brand/model designed
for the materials used in that lock?

Yeah picking the lock is low down the list of likely outcomes, fast and brutal is more likely.  Watched the Lock Picking Lawyer on his
other U style locks?  Fairly sure he uses a device that may work on this lock but I have not seen anyone try it, I wonder why?
A small hydraulic version could fit up your sleeve and offer more power and faster.

People love to rubbish the locks because 2 blokes lifting the bike into a van takes seconds and they don't care what lock is fitted
which is the most likely method. Even an alarm could be muffled with some loud music.

Maybe an old Top Gear or 5th Gear where they were testing security devices one manufacturer was extremely unhappy the thief just
folded the lock flat to the wheel.  They were saying but you have not removed it, he said I can drive away why do I need to remove it.
Once folded flat if did nothing to stop it being driven normally. Seems they failed in the design stage and were extremely unhappy the
thief did not do what they wanted. Advertised on ebay now it would probably be the best lock on Temu or Wish.

You keep saying you don't understand and it's not helping but you have not detailed what vehicle and what your trying to prevent?
As you yourself said you could do lots of things but its infeasible to cater for every eventuality. So what car and what is your priority
and time/money/inconvenience?

SouthLondonUser

@forgotmyname My question was how these security devices rank from safest to least safe:

• the Blockshaft
• the disclock(the round metal thing that covers the entire steering wheel)
• the stoplock (the yellow metal bar that attaches to the steering wheel)
• an external clamp; these are rare, but I have seen a few people clamping their own cars

It is just curiosity. Nothing to do with my car. The question is not what I should use for my car or what is appropriate for the value of my car. That's why I "have not detailed what vehicle nor what I am trying to prevent". I am not trying to prevent anything. I was just curious on how those 4 systems compare. Even if Blockshaft were the safest security system on the planet, I would realistically be unable to import it and have it installed here, so, for the nth time, it's just curiosity.

If you are unwilling or unable to answer, that's of course totally fine, but please just say so.

As for the hiplok ulock, we must be speaking different languages.

You talk as if I had said it guarantees 100% security - of course it does not.

Yes, like I have already said, all locks can be picked, and the lock picking lawyer can probably pick it, too. It still remains more secure than non-diamond rated locks - not because it cannot be picked but because the greater angle-grinder resistance makes it more secure.

Yes, of course, two gentlemen can load the motorbike on a van and deal with the lock later. But it still remains more secure than non-diamond rated locks - not because the motorbike cannot be loaded onto a van but because the greater angle-grinder resistance makes it more secure.

Yes, with enough time even diamond-rated ulocks can be cut; but don't forget that the cutting time with a portable angle grinder is longer than with a mains-operated one, and that thieves would require multiple batteries and discs, which not everyone carries.

If you leave a £40,000 motorbike outside, it's not inconceivable that thieves will spot it and come prepared with enough batteries and discs. But, again, diamond-rated ulocks are safer not because they cannot be cut but because the longer cutting time required reduces the probability of theft.

I mean, I don't quite follow what your logic is. Do you use no security because there isn't a single security device which offers 100% certainty? Do you leave your front door open with a sign "help yourselves" because any door can be broken into? Do you leave your car door open with the key on the seat, because any car can be stolen? I don't get it...

forgotmyname

Seems your not reading my comments properly.  My last comment was not about LPL picking the lock, he made a simple
device to force U locks open.  The type of tool you can build with items from B&Q for £5 - £10.
My query was why the testers only used angle grinders and not that type of attack?  Why cut it when you can spread it
in a fraction of the time with almost no noise?

Do I use security, only the security the car came with, alarm and immobiliser.  I even removed the locking wheel nuts because the
key design my manufacturer used are subject to micro cracks which can fail when you least expect it.

And yes I have left my car unlocked before now.  How are they going to drive it away with the immobiliser active?


Would I use a Blockshaft, no way.. Airbag issues for my vehicle, they need to strip the wheel and column to weld it.

Would I use a Disklok, maybe a couple of times before its a nuisance and then it will sit in the boot before being dumped
in the shed.

Would I use a Stoplock, only if I wanted to give a thief more leverage on the wheel to break the steering lock.

Some of these locks may work for some cars and not others so there is no simple answer. It all depends on the vehicle
and what protection you want. With security you need to think outside the box and find the flaws in the design.

A manufacturer claims its junior hacksaw proof you dont just attack it with a junior hacksaw and go yes/no..  You try many
approaches which is why the true testers buy several of the items because one attack may end the testing prematurely.
Diamond cutoff vs Diamond abrasive cutoff etc.  Abrasive maybe slower but it should last the entire cut for example. But
not relevant to securing a car.

SouthLondonUser

As for the lock picking lawyer's device, do you have a link?

I do not know why that device was not mentioned in the hiplok reviews. It can be any combination of:

• it's an evil conspiracy
• reviewers genuinely didn't know about it
• not particularly relevant because, like lock picking, it's not much of an issue

The point remains the same: all locks can be defeated, and the fact that this lock can be defeated in a certain way doesn't negate the fact that it remains much more secure than most others.