Landscaping job gone bad - small claims?

why123

Hi All,

I am thinking of taking my landscaper to court via small claims but I am unsure and I've never done anything like this before or been in a situation where its cost me £10000 extra to fix.

I'll try and keep the story as brief as possible with key information, and I understand i could of done things differently myself. 

I found 2 landscapers to do my garden after our extension was done. 70sqm patio and an large area of artificial turf. Both came out at the same price and i picked the landscaper who viewed the job first as he had been chatting to me to give me ideas and sending me pictures of his other work. Agreement was 50% up front 50% at the end of the job with us supplying our own Porcelain slabs and artificial turf. Job started and was very quick, but quickly things started slow down, not turning up, making excuses, using his child as an excuse. I was laid back at the start of this as I have young children too and he seemed a nice chap. It got to the point where I said i was going to get someone else and then he started turning up and the ball started rolling. Initially he had a few people with him but it quickly just became him. As the job was over the winter he kept pestering me for more money as he had no other jobs and had to sit on my garden during the frozen weeks. Now at first i refused but the weather picked up and the patio started taking shape I gave him another bit and he continued to do the work. The job was almost complete and I came home from work one day to see them grouting in the rain and the dark. I questioned this as the grout I ordered which he confirmed with me specifically said not to do in the damp / wet. He said he had to finish today as he had other jobs and I needed to pay the balance ASAP. I refused and said i would need to see the job in the morning and confirm. 

During patio install i had to purchase another 10 tiles because during drain cuts he kept breaking them, i did do a bit of research but it seemed it was easy to break large porcelain slabs during cuts. 

I looked at the job in the morning and it was horrendous. Grout all over the place, tile levels you could feel not level, cuts around drains some were grouted in some weren't, cuts weren't straight and were chipped edges. I had 2 sets of bifold doors at 3 meters each one could open half and one would only open a 1/4 due to hitting the tiles. He pestered me for money all weekend whilst he was away on a stag do saying i was costing him and i owe him and he had done the work. I asked him to stop messaging me and come and see me when he came back. On his return I tried to stay calm but i said i wasn't happy, showed him all the bits and he said they were fine. We both agreed to part ways, he was getting annoyed. I said i would get quotes from others to fix it the job.

After having a few people in, it was obvious there was no quick / short / small fix, the patio needed fully lifting and relaying. Whilst getting these quotes in I was still getting hassled by the landscaper for the final 25%. Eventually i got an email from him saying he was going to take me to court. I replied to this email in detail, showing the issues, the problems I'd had, the money I had given etc and never got a reply and never had anything from the courts. 

I managed to get a company in who were able to give me a good quote and said they would work to save as many slabs as they could. Work started and they quickly identified issues:

SBR not used everywhere

Fall line creating puddling and going towards the house

Bifolds not opening because higher levels

Brickslot drainage had no fall so it was no draining hence the stale water smell

Drains were covered over because he couldn't could around them

Foul drain was not done properly hence the horrible smell in that area

The base was road plainings but had grass in it and other bits it shouldnt

The base was crumbling as nowhere near enough cement was used and grout cracks were caused because of this

In the end they managed to save 1 pack of slabs, I had to order another 2 packs, the sub base had to be re-done, new drainage was installed. and it cost me £10,000 to have the patio put right. We are really happy with the job, the company where great and trading standards use this company locally to send out to jobs whereby people have been done wrong etc. Very helpful. 

We couldn't afford to have the artificial turf rectified, the base isn't great (road plainings, then sand, then grano dust) along with the joins not being great, so I have left this out the of the picture and when the time comes if we need to do it again I'll have to take that one on the chin. 

I paid the first 50% cash as we had agreed, and then 2 bank transfers. However I have our whatsapp conversations reveal all that was paid and balances etc. They explain alot as most of our communication was done via whatsapp as I was at work. 

I have alot of pictures of the poor work, the company who fixed it took alot of pictures to show what they had found when lifting it up and when videos of doors not being able to open and how the cement bed was crumbling in there hands. 

So with all this I was going to raise a claim online and let it take its course. I was wondering if anyone has done this before and been successful. I have worries, the landscapers company is now showing as dissolved, he told me he lived in a rented house etc. If I was to win would I even  get my money back? I'm guessing I would claim back what I have paid him not the cost to fix the patio? 

Any help, tips, advise would be great. I have read the article on here about making claims which has been helpful. 

Thanks, 

pinkshoes

What was the original quote to have all the work done? It would helpful to have a comparison to the £10k it cost to put right.

As the two original quotes were the same (so not someone quoting cheap to get the work), then I'd take him to court for the full amount to put right (less the amount you owe him) so you're not out of pocket. I'd also get quotes on how much it will cost to put right the turf area too and also claim for that.

If you know his address you can find out if he owns the property by downloading the property register for £3. Does he have any other assets? A van? I think you can get a court order to claim from a dissolved company. 

If he has no assets then some people will argue that you're throwing good money after bad. Others will happily go through with the court claim and bankrupt the person if they have no assets. It might not get you the money, but it will guarantee to make their life really difficult, so you at least get some personal satisfaction from it.  

DullGreyGuy

First of all check you are looking at the right company and its status... some people use trading names that are similar to a companies name but they are actually sole traders. You can only use the entity you were in contract with and if it's dissolved it's a major set of headaches.

Your second issue is that at £10,000 you are at the limit of the Small Track and so if the case is defended there is a chance it may end up in Fast Track instead which has a slightly more formal process but also means legal fees can start being claimed so if you lose then you could end up paying for his lawyers. Claim value alone isn't the only consideration on which track the claim is allocated to so fudging it and not claiming for court fees or interest etc won't guarantee you stay in small track but on the plus judges are encouraged to put things in the lowest track reasonable. 

Thirdly, even if you get the company reinstated (assuming it is currently dissolved) or you find out you were in contract with him directly there is the question of if they have the funds to actually pay you... if you win there are various tools you can use to try and get the money back but the percentage of judgements ever settled is surprisingly low (but then almost 90% of claims are settled by default - ie the defendant never responds)

Aylesbury_Duck

In summary, you seem to have lots of good evidence needed to make the claim.  How much was the total cost of the job done by the person you're planning to sue?  It would be helpful to compare that to the £10k rectifying cost.

Your penultimate paragraph is the really important one:

why123 said:

H

So with all this I was going to raise a claim online and let it take its course. I was wondering if anyone has done this before and been successful. I have worries, the landscapers company is now showing as dissolved, he told me he lived in a rented house etc. If I was to win would I even  get my money back? I'm guessing I would claim back what I have paid him not the cost to fix the patio? 

Plenty of people have done this, plenty will have been successful in court.  Fewer will have been successful in getting their money, though.  If the company you contracted with has been dissolved, then I can't see you getting your money back even if you win your case because the company has gone and there won't be any assets to claim against.  Before putting all the legwork of a case together and incurring a filing fee, I think you should assess whether there's any chance of getting payment.

HillStreetBlues

DullGreyGuy said:

First of all check you are looking at the right company and its status... some people use trading names that are similar to a companies name but they are actually sole traders. You can only use the entity you were in contract with and if it's dissolved it's a major set of headaches.

Your second issue is that at £10,000 you are at the limit of the Small Track and so if the case is defended there is a chance it may end up in Fast Track instead which has a slightly more formal process but also means legal fees can start being claimed so if you lose then you could end up paying for his lawyers. Claim value alone isn't the only consideration on which track the claim is allocated to so fudging it and not claiming for court fees or interest etc won't guarantee you stay in small track but on the plus judges are encouraged to put things in the lowest track reasonable. 

Thirdly, even if you get the company reinstated (assuming it is currently dissolved) or you find out you were in contract with him directly there is the question of if they have the funds to actually pay you... if you win there are various tools you can use to try and get the money back but the percentage of judgements ever settled is surprisingly low (but then almost 90% of claims are settled by default - ie the defendant never responds)

Now about 92% on latest figures.

DullGreyGuy

HillStreetBlues said:

DullGreyGuy said:

First of all check you are looking at the right company and its status... some people use trading names that are similar to a companies name but they are actually sole traders. You can only use the entity you were in contract with and if it's dissolved it's a major set of headaches.

Your second issue is that at £10,000 you are at the limit of the Small Track and so if the case is defended there is a chance it may end up in Fast Track instead which has a slightly more formal process but also means legal fees can start being claimed so if you lose then you could end up paying for his lawyers. Claim value alone isn't the only consideration on which track the claim is allocated to so fudging it and not claiming for court fees or interest etc won't guarantee you stay in small track but on the plus judges are encouraged to put things in the lowest track reasonable. 

Thirdly, even if you get the company reinstated (assuming it is currently dissolved) or you find out you were in contract with him directly there is the question of if they have the funds to actually pay you... if you win there are various tools you can use to try and get the money back but the percentage of judgements ever settled is surprisingly low (but then almost 90% of claims are settled by default - ie the defendant never responds)

Now about 92% on latest figures.

Read the damned thing wrong, yes 92% last quarter compared to 89% in 2019. The numbers do jump around significantly though with double digit swings on a YoY basis so not sure too much can be read into on any two point analysis

why123

Hi All,

Many thanks for all the responses. To answer a couple of questions:

The original quote was £15,000, in that quote he had 2000 for slabs, 1500 for  artificial turf but we didn't like the samples offered so said we would put in the extra and for our own slabs and turf. Our Slabs came up to £2600 and the Turf £2300. I also ordered small bits like grout and drainage which he asked me to order. I paid him £5000 cash, then I paid him £2000 BACS and then another £1000 BACS, these were to an account with only his name not a business account. I paid him £8000 to date and refused the final payment of circa £3000. 

It cost me £5000 to have the whole 70SQM Patio taken up and relayed, then the base was discovered and charged circa £3800 to re-do the sub base, and then £1300 for new slabs (they were now on sale) and I had to re-purchase the drainage. My cost has been just over £10000. The cost to re-do it has cost more due to lifting and the re-dig and waste disposal etc. 

The company was started in April 2021 and dissolved by September 2022 around the time he started my work. I guess what I paid him went straight into his pocket outside of HMRC. 

Also I was referred him by a close friend who said he had known him for a long time and knew he did landscaping but never had a job of him. 

I have everything ready to take this to small claims now and £10000 is heap of change to just let fly, I guess I was just worried on this costing me a lot more and loosing. I should have proof of me taking the £5000 out of my account but I only have BACS proof of £3000 being paid to him. 

Thanks

born_again

If you paid (invoice) to the company (makes no difference where funds were paid) & they are now dissolved. Where do you think any funds will come from?

Aylesbury_Duck

For £10k you have to try, but on the understanding you are likely never to receive that sum and the court fee will be lost, too.

why123

born_again said:

If you paid (invoice) to the company (makes no difference where funds were paid) & they are now dissolved. Where do you think any funds will come from?

From what I can see his company dissolved before we engaged. Everything I paid went into his account apart from the cash so there was no company. I guess this could make it harder to claim?

ArbitraryRandom

Aylesbury_Duck said:

For £10k you have to try, but on the understanding you are likely never to receive that sum and the court fee will be lost, too.

It would be the £10k for the fix minus the £3k that was outstanding/unpaid - so at least £7k (plus ~£500 filing fee) makes it small claims. 

why123 said:

born_again said:

If you paid (invoice) to the company (makes no difference where funds were paid) & they are now dissolved. Where do you think any funds will come from?

From what I can see his company dissolved before we engaged. Everything I paid went into his account apart from the cash so there was no company. I guess this could make it harder to claim?

If the company was dissolved before you contracted the job, then you would be claiming from him as an individual trader. If the business didn't really have any assets then that's possibly a good thing for you. 

As per the advice you received upthread, what you really need to do is figure out if he has any money/official income (you can check if he owns his home via the land registry for £4, which is cheaper and the most sensible option compared to immediately paying £500 to take him to court). You will need his address to serve papers anyway. 

You have upto 6 years to pursue a debt, though obviously waiting has pros and cons...