Ownership of property boundaries

ivk

Given the property boundaries on the transfer are as shown, who owns the rear fence on the top? I would guess the owner of the property within the red line, but then why is that edge not marked with a T sign?

Same question for the party wall on the right. There's a T sign on the left wall between the garages, but why are there no T signs for the right wall between the houses?

Then what about the part of the fence on the top left? Is it shared too?

[Deleted User]

Hi.

the red line is never measured to the inch, so will be a variance.

p00hsticks

You can't rely on the ownership of the fence necessarily being the same as the property whose boundary it legally is.

Unless there is an enforced covenant obliging the person to erect and maintain a fence (or similar) , then as far as I'm aware there is no obligation to mark a boundary, and so if a neighbouring property wants there to be a boundary fence where there isn;t one, they may have erected one immediately just on their side of the boundary. 

Alderbank

Ordnance Survey, who know about such things, put it elegantly when they say 

A legal boundary is an invisible legal line that denotes the extent of land ownership.

The Land Registry are responsible for the red line on the title plan but not for that actual invisible line on the ground. On the title plan they say 
This title plan shows the general position of the boundaries: it does not show the exact line of the boundaries.

Ordnance Survey wisely and sensibly also say
If you want to record the exact boundary between your property and your neighbour, you should speak to your neighbour to agree this informally and agree who has responsibility for the fence/hedge/wall.

That has always worked fine for me. I don't know who owns what but when anything has blown down, I and 'the other side' agree to just get it fixed and split the costs.

ivk

p00hsticks said:

You can't rely on the ownership of the fence necessarily being the same as the property whose boundary it legally is.

Unless there is an enforced covenant obliging the person to erect and maintain a fence (or similar) , then as far as I'm aware there is no obligation to mark a boundary, and so if a neighbouring property wants there to be a boundary fence where there isn;t one, they may have erected one immediately just on their side of the boundary. 

For that purpose, what counts a neighbouring property? There is a public footpath at the rear (top) side and no any adjacent properties. It's also not clear who owns the party wall (on the right, between the thick lines).

ivk

Alderbank said:

Ordnance Survey, who know about such things, put it elegantly when they say 

A legal boundary is an invisible legal line that denotes the extent of land ownership.

The Land Registry are responsible for the red line on the title plan but not for that actual invisible line on the ground. On the title plan they say 
This title plan shows the general position of the boundaries: it does not show the exact line of the boundaries.

Ordnance Survey wisely and sensibly also say
If you want to record the exact boundary between your property and your neighbour, you should speak to your neighbour to agree this informally and agree who has responsibility for the fence/hedge/wall.

That has always worked fine for me. I don't know who owns what but when anything has blown down, I and 'the other side' agree to just get it fixed and split the costs.

I should probably clarify that the question is about knowing the ownership of various parts of the boundaries per the current legal state of things, not their exact positions or means of settling them with neighbours.

So far my impression was that the title plan in the deed is the definitive source of such information, but now it sounds like it's not really? If so, then where should one look into for it?

Alderbank

'Owner of the land' might be a better term to use than 'property'.

In English law the owner of the land does own every permanent structure on it, whether it is a concreted-in fence post or a block of ten flats. The land owner can lease the flats out to leaseholders but the land and everything built on it belongs to the land owner. When the lease expires or is forfeit the leaseholder is left with nothing.

All land is owned by someone. Unless it has been registered the Land Registry won't know who. The footpath might well be on land owned by the local authority. The owner could be a charity like the National Trust.

Not the case here, but quite often the ownership, the red line, extends some distance beyond the actual fence round a property. It's not at all unusual that houses on each side of a road actually own all the land from the front of their garden right up to the centre of the road. The owners can't do anything with it such as charge people who park there because it is part of the highway and is managed by the relevant Highways authority but they own it.

Alderbank

ivk said:

Alderbank said:

Ordnance Survey, who know about such things, put it elegantly when they say 

A legal boundary is an invisible legal line that denotes the extent of land ownership.

The Land Registry are responsible for the red line on the title plan but not for that actual invisible line on the ground. On the title plan they say 
This title plan shows the general position of the boundaries: it does not show the exact line of the boundaries.

Ordnance Survey wisely and sensibly also say
If you want to record the exact boundary between your property and your neighbour, you should speak to your neighbour to agree this informally and agree who has responsibility for the fence/hedge/wall.

That has always worked fine for me. I don't know who owns what but when anything has blown down, I and 'the other side' agree to just get it fixed and split the costs.

So far my impression was that the title plan in the deed is the definitive source of such information, but now it sounds like it's not really? If so, then where should one look into for it?

There isn't a definitive source in the UK.

The Government could have instructed Ordnance Survey to carry out such a survey but the cost would be prohibitive and they have not done so.

If you and your neighbour both believe the red line should be in a different place you can both go to the Land Registry and have it changed, so that the red line more accurately reflects reality.

If you think the boundary is wrong but your neighbour disagrees you could challenge them in court. The court will look at what evidence you have for your claim. Usually that would be ancient property deeds, but people have successfully used more modern records such as aerial photographs and even Google satellite images.

Note that courts employ the 'de minimis' principle. That means they don't bother about trivial things, so they won't help with a 100 or 200mm error. It has to be substantial.

Land_Registry

It’s very rare for one piece of information to be definitive re boundaries in the way you might hope. The registered information and a deed plan, which you have shared, are often useful starting points but as you now appreciate they don’t define matters - unless of course you and any neighbouring landowner(s) interpret/agree the information in the same way. 

Have a read of our assisted online guidance and our blog article which will help explain where ‘more’ information might be available and shared to help you and/or the neighbouring landowners to agree responsibility 

ThisIsWeird

ivk said:

Given the property boundaries on the transfer are as shown, who owns the rear fence on the top? I would guess the owner of the property within the red line, but then why is that edge not marked with a T sign?

Same question for the party wall on the right. There's a T sign on the left wall between the garages, but why are there no T signs for the right wall between the houses?

Then what about the part of the fence on the top left? Is it shared too?

Hi Ivk.

I'm guessing, from the content of your post, that you aren't concerned about the actual boundary locations, but just who has responsibility or ownership of the fences? In which case, chill.

First thing - read the deeds and see what is written down in reference to these reds lines and 'T's.

Unless the deeds dictate that the owner must maintain a physical boundary or fence, then it's all largely moot in any case.

You might determine that a certain boundary is the 'responsibility' of a particular homeowner, but unless the deeds also state that this person must maintain a physical boundary, then it simply comes down to convention and consideration. If the 'responsible' party doesn't have the funds, or just cannot be bovvered, to maintain a failing fence, then there's precious little anyone can do about it. You cannot force anyone to put up or repair a fence, unless - say -  it's causing damage or presents a risk, or they have a wild animal like a child that needs to be constrained within their boundary.

So, if you find out that, say, the top two sections of your RH boundary is the neighbour's - and it could well be - what would that mean in practice? If the fence is in poor repair, then you'd usually approach the neighb in a friendly manner, and ask their thoughts about it. If their reply indicates that they have no intention of repairing the fence, what can you do about it? Correct - next to now't. (Unless the failing fence presents a risk, or their wild animals can get into your garden).

Yes, 'T's do generally indicate an 'ownership' or 'responsibility', but in practice it means little - except that the majority of folk do take their responsibilities fairly seriously, so would do the 'right thing'. But the wording in the deeds means a lot. A fence with Ts on one side would suggest 'ownership' (ie, the physical fence sits on your side of the invisible boundary line, and is fully yours) or responsibility. A fence with double-T's suggest a party or shared boundary, and you'd expect that physical fence to straddles the actual invisible boundary line - and you'd also hope that the neighbour would contribute 50:50 to its repair and maintenance. But, since fences are typically only around 3 to 4 inches thick, it'll usually be very difficult to determine where this exact boundary line lies.

In your specific example, the bottom fence borders a public footpath? So, the ownership of that stretch of fence may well come down to that land's owner, possibly the council? But that's not to say that they have any actual enforceable responsibility to maintain it - if it falls downs, they could simply remove it (as could any of your neighbours with theirs).

What is your actual concern or issue here? Do some fences need work? 

ivk

ThisIsWeird said:

ivk said:

Given the property boundaries on the transfer are as shown, who owns the rear fence on the top? I would guess the owner of the property within the red line, but then why is that edge not marked with a T sign?

Same question for the party wall on the right. There's a T sign on the left wall between the garages, but why are there no T signs for the right wall between the houses?

Then what about the part of the fence on the top left? Is it shared too?

Hi Ivk.

I'm guessing, from the content of your post, that you aren't concerned about the actual boundary locations, but just who has responsibility or ownership of the fences? In which case, chill.

First thing - read the deeds and see what is written down in reference to these reds lines and 'T's.

Unless the deeds dictate that the owner must maintain a physical boundary or fence, then it's all largely moot in any case.

You might determine that a certain boundary is the 'responsibility' of a particular homeowner, but unless the deeds also state that this person must maintain a physical boundary, then it simply comes down to convention and consideration. If the 'responsible' party doesn't have the funds, or just cannot be bovvered, to maintain a failing fence, then there's precious little anyone can do about it. You cannot force anyone to put up or repair a fence, unless - say -  it's causing damage or presents a risk, or they have a wild animal like a child that needs to be constrained within their boundary.

So, if you find out that, say, the top two sections of your RH boundary is the neighbour's - and it could well be - what would that mean in practice? If the fence is in poor repair, then you'd usually approach the neighb in a friendly manner, and ask their thoughts about it. If their reply indicates that they have no intention of repairing the fence, what can you do about it? Correct - next to now't. (Unless the failing fence presents a risk, or their wild animals can get into your garden).

Yes, 'T's do generally indicate an 'ownership' or 'responsibility', but in practice it means little - except that the majority of folk do take their responsibilities fairly seriously, so would do the 'right thing'. But the wording in the deeds means a lot. A fence with Ts on one side would suggest 'ownership' (ie, the physical fence sits on your side of the invisible boundary line, and is fully yours) or responsibility. A fence with double-T's suggest a party or shared boundary, and you'd expect that physical fence to straddles the actual invisible boundary line - and you'd also hope that the neighbour would contribute 50:50 to its repair and maintenance. But, since fences are typically only around 3 to 4 inches thick, it'll usually be very difficult to determine where this exact boundary line lies.

In your specific example, the bottom fence borders a public footpath? So, the ownership of that stretch of fence may well come down to that land's owner, possibly the council? But that's not to say that they have any actual enforceable responsibility to maintain it - if it falls downs, they could simply remove it (as could any of your neighbours with theirs).

What is your actual concern or issue here? Do some fences need work? 

Thanks. What about the party wall between the thick lines on the right? I think I now understand that what concerns fences, their ownership and maintenance responsibility might well not be defined, but it feels weird when I try to apply the same principles to party walls.

The only thing that the deed says is that the parties declare and agree 'that any boundary markers indicated by the symbol H on the said plan dividing the property from the adjoining premises are party boundary markers and maintainable and repairable accordingly'.