Ownership of property boundaries

sevenhills

ivk said:

Thanks. What about the party wall between the thick lines on the right?

A "party" wall means one that is jointly owned, surely?

So don't use the term "party" unless you know it is jointly owned.

Many party wall that divides houses include a chimney. If I build a wall, then I own it, if I build a wall on someone elses land, then I will be in bother, unless we agree that I can build it there.

ThisIsWeird

ivk said:

ivk said:

Thanks. What about the party wall between the thick lines on the right? I think I now understand that what concerns fences, their ownership and maintenance responsibility might well not be defined, but it feels weird when I try to apply the same principles to party walls.

Do I take it that the thick black rectangle in t'middle is your semi-detached house? If so, then almost certainly the red line does represent a 'party' wall in this case. Ie, that shared wall straddles the boundary, and the responsibility for it is shared.

Anyone carrying out work that might significantly interfere with that wall should seek permission from the other side, and provide assurances to the owner. By 'significant', that would mean anything that, for example, could go further than half-way through - you wouldn't concern yourself about putting up some shelves. If both sides had chimney breasts and one wanted theirs removed, there could be a situation where the brickwork is stitched into the party wall to the depth of the boundary line, or more, so again that could be a 'declarable' issue, where one would give assurances to t'other, including the builder to be used, and the other side may insist on a PWAS if at all concerned. If you don't trust the other person, then you can usually insist on a Party Wall Act surveyor to be employed by them to look after your interests.

It really comes down to what work is being done, and how trustworthy the other person is. By 'trustworthy', I mean whether they are likely to try and take advantage, say if they go for a loft conversion and a new dormer is taken right up to the line, with its external cladding overhanging on to your side, that sort of stuff (I think there was a case like this a few years ago on here). In which case, if you were to also build an identical dormer, you'd likely end up with a marginally smaller one. Or, 'untrustworthy' by being enthusiastic DIYers, but of questionable competence; you'd def want a PWAS...

If, however, they are upfront, show you their plans, employ a respected builder, then you have little actual reason to insist on a PWAS, because you should still be protected should they mess up - it's what builder and house insurance is for. (And always let your own insurance co know that work is being done in advance).

If your houses are symmetrical, then it should be very easy to determine where the central boundary line of the shared - party - wall lies.

May I ask what your concern is? If you or the neighb is 'planning' something, then it might help to determine whether there is an issue.

ThisIsWeird

ivk said:

The bottom-right red line in that deeds(?) map shows a dotted black line in it. I'd expect there to be a written reference to this in the deeds content. Is there?

Any what about the crosshatched area at the bottom - what is that? Is it the path you mentioned? If so, it looks as tho' you own it, but it would have a RoW over it. But, the wording is wot counts.

[Deleted User]

Hi.

maybe would help if you explained what your concern/problem is, make things clearer?

stuhse

My understanding of boundaries is as follows : No one owns a property boundary, a boundary is simply the infinitely thin line between two pieces of land in different ownership.  What is owned by someone is the 'boundary feature' such as a fence or wall erected on or immediately adjacent to the boundary line. There is no requirement to have a boundary feature at all.  Ownership of boundary features is often indicated on plans such as the above when properties are newly built, as the boundary features have been erected by the builder and it let's the new owners know who owns the boundary feature that exists at that time. The older the property the less this plan can be relied on as it is more likely that the fence has been replaced at some point in time. Its possible the new fence could have been erected by either neighbour or indeed jointly.  With a one hundred year old house it's possible a wooden fence may have been replaced many times...perhaps 10.  In the case of a brick built wall it's less likely.  If a boundary feature reaches the end of it's natural life the owner can choose to replace it or not (just as with a pair of shoes or a car).
 Sometimes there maybe covenants in property deeds appearing ťo say a property owner is responsible for replacing a fence (for example) but these are very often unenforceable for numerous reasons .  Eg they are positive covenants, or they are only enforceable by the original parties to the deed ie the builder and the original purchaser of the property. The deeds need to be read by someone with suitable training in law in this respect as a layman could easily be mislead by what the words appear to say.

ivk

frugalmacdugal said:

Hi.

maybe would help if you explained what your concern/problem is, make things clearer?

No concerns. We are just looking to buy the house and I want to understand the relevant rules, rights and responsibilities. Nearly all discussions I can find about it go no further the usual suggestions about being nice and cooperative with neighbours or discuss boundary positions, and I must admit this doesn't help much with understanding the legal status of things.

For example, @stuhse says that it's boundary features that can be subject to ownership, but if there are none and nothing the deed says about it, who would have the right and/or responsibility to erect some? Another question might be, for the rear fence at the top of the image, whether the owner of the property would have the right to change it as they like.

Elliott.T123

ivk said:

frugalmacdugal said:

Hi.

maybe would help if you explained what your concern/problem is, make things clearer?

No concerns. We are just looking to buy the house and I want to understand the relevant rules, rights and responsibilities. Nearly all discussions I can find about it go no further the usual suggestions about being nice and cooperative with neighbours or discuss boundary positions, and I must admit this doesn't help much with understanding the legal status of things.

For example, @stuhse says that it's boundary features that can be subject to ownership, but if there are none and nothing the deed says about it, who would have the right and/or responsibility to erect some? Another question might be, for the rear fence at the top of the image, whether the owner of the property would have the right to change it as they like.

To make it as clear as possible, unless you are buying a new build property then the deeds do not show who owns the boundary features.

On a new build they will be correct but as soon as a fence has been replaced that may no longer be correct.

No one has any responsibility to erect or maintain a fence (or similar) (unless there is a specific covenant, but I will ignore this for the rest of my answer). Either party can choose to erect a fence (or similar) as long as it is on their side of the boundary (right up to it/on it is fine). If there is already a fence there that you want to replace the best course of action is speak to the neighbours, they may say crack on, they may offer to split the cost or they may say that what you are looking to replace with is horrible and make it difficult (although you could always put a new fence Infront of the old one a fraction inside your property)

Short version, there are no restorability's or rights, it is up to you and potentially to agree with your neighbours.

aliby21

Rights - anyone can erect something along a boundary (as long as it complies with planning).  I had a 4ft fence along my back garden (mine, put up by me), my new neighbour  unilaterally  decided to put up a 6ft fence right up against it. Entirely within their rights.  I've planted a hedge along another boundary with another neighbour where previously there was no marker (though agreed between us). 
Responsibilities - none officially.  Up to the person if they want to contain dogs/children/wild animals by putting a fence around their property. There may be something in the covenants about responsibility for a fence but these will be hard to enforce. As others have said, if there is a t marker this indicates responsibility for maintaining a boundary marker but this can be a stretch of wire, or a few pegs whacked in the ground, or whatever.  
For the rear fence, depends who owns the fence.  You can't change if it belongs to someone else. you can't even paint your side of the fence if it belongs to a neighbour, unless you have their permission.

stuhse

You can only find out what the T marks on a plan mean by reading the notes that go with that plan. There is no standard meaning for a T mark.  Very often they indicate ownership of the boundary feature existing at the time the plan is drawn .  It's very very unlikely they will indicate an obligation to maintain a boundary feature or marker in perpetuity.

stuhse

ivk said:

For example, @stuhse says that it's boundary features that can be subject to ownership, but if there are none and nothing the deed says about it, who would have the right and/or responsibility to erect some? Another question might be, for the rear fence at the top of the image, whether the owner of the property would have the right to change it as they like.

Either neighbour can erect a boundary feature on their own land immediately adjacent to the boundary line. Neither neighbour has a responsibility to do so.   He who wants a fence shall erect a fence.  You can only take down a fence and replace it if you have established it is your fence in the first place.  You can establish this from declarations/ information in the sellers pack, physical observations and discussing it with neighbours.