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Is the bus company taking me for a ride ?

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  • Aylesbury_Duck
    Aylesbury_Duck Posts: 15,662 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    mikcatta said:
    mikcatta said:
    mikcatta said:
    I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride ;)

    An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

    Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
    It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

    I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

    Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

    As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

    Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

    Hope that helps.
    I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile :)

    The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

    I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

    My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

    Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

    So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  


    How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

    How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

    many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...
    Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 
    But again, how are they to know that? 

    Retailer process payment, as far as bank is concerned, you have authorised it. 

    Sorry if you don't like it, but that is the way the system works.
    Authorised one payment, not two
    Indeed, but I suspect the terms of your account/card are such that unless you've specifically insisted on authorising each and every transaction, they will authorise a second payment because they won't be able to tell an erroneous duplicate from a genuine one.

    Have you asked for every transaction to require your authorisation?  I guess not, so you probably should enable that restriction. 
  • mikcatta said:
    mikcatta said:
    I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride ;)

    An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

    Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
    It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

    I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

    Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

    As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

    Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

    Hope that helps.
    I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile :)

    The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

    I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

    My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

    Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

    So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  


    How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

    How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

    many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...
    Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 
    Is it not possible, neigh likely, that one transaction completed but due to a technical issue (could be signal, or a technical error) the app didn’t close the check out window. You then placed the same order again, by clicking checkout, and then Stirling noticing that the transaction amount is the same and follows very closely to the previous transaction asked for you to verify the transaction? 

    I’m not saying that is what has happened but First is a pretty big company. I don’t think they’d systematically double charge people to make £2 extra. If you haven’t looked up Occams Razor before, it’d be a good time to look it up. 

    If this was an error on their part (either due to raising two transactions, or not closing the checkout window properly) then I think it would be a genuine error, that has now been reported and (for you) appears to be resolved by refunding the money. 

    As for approving all transactions, there will be apps snd banks that can do that. And I’m afraid it is the banks that slow down transactions - and it sometimes takes 5 days to get a refund. That’s not Firsts fault - rather it’s the banks. Merchants don’t just get the money instantly either (and often wait a lot longer than 5 days…) 
  • baser999
    baser999 Posts: 1,242 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    And all for £2 😱
  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 20,350 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper

    mikcatta said:

    Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 

    Bank DO NOT pay retailer, retailer takes the funds they have requested via authorisation.

    You still have not said if these have actually debited your account. Or still sat as authorisations?
    Life in the slow lane
  • 400ixl
    400ixl Posts: 4,482 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Third Anniversary Name Dropper
    I do like the argue both sides of the coin.

    Banks should authorise every transaction, but I don't want them to authorise every transaction as that would be a pain. You can't have both.

    Is there a bank that does do and authorisation every transaction, especially if Apple Pay / Google Pay are used? I don't know of any.

    In this case, the retailer requested a payment, it triggered the requirement for authorisation which you gave. Then the retailer requested another payment, the banking system rules did not require another authorisation so took it on face value that you had made that request.

    I have had this once (it was deliberate as I was buying two tickets where they couldn't be added together at source), but was immediately aware as I then got two notifications from the Starling banking app in quick succession that the payments had been taken. Neither needed authorisation as I was using Google Pay where you authenticate there.

    The bank would have had no idea if I had meant to buy two tickets or not, they can only go on the request. Also you can often get payment requests which go through as holds which will then drop off or even change in value (TFL for example).

    The immediate notification that you get is really useful for making sure transactions have gone through and stops you mistakingly making multiple payments, it won't stop the retailer requesting multiple though.

    Pain that it happened, but in this case it is likely the retailer not the bank you should be venting your frustrations at.
  • Vectis
    Vectis Posts: 770 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    baser999 said:
    And all for £2 😱

    And 'a refund is due in 3-5days' anyway.

    If I mislaid a £2 coin would I spend so much time worrying about it, especially if I knew I'd be getting it back in a few days time anyway? No.
  • Also worth pointing out that if banks asked for verification for every transaction people become notification numb and stop paying attention to what they’re saying ‘yes’ to. If I got a 2FA message from work every time I had to send an email, or open an email, or open a program - I’d end up getting one of those drinking bird toys to hit ‘yes’ every second! 
  • born_again
    born_again Posts: 20,350 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper
    Given this has to be in effect a contactless payment (no mention of apple of google pay) it is taken as user authorisation.
    Sounds like either system had a little hiccup, or button pressed twice as nothing seemed to be happening 1st time.
    Life in the slow lane

  • mikcatta said:

    Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 

    Bank DO NOT pay retailer, retailer takes the funds they have requested via authorisation.

    You still have not said if these have actually debited your account. Or still sat as authorisations?
    They said they have received two bus tickets, so I would imagine there two payments in this case. 

    In answer to the question as to whether the bus company are taking to the OP for a ride, no, they are taking them for two rides!
    Northern Ireland club member No 382 :j
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