Is the bus company taking me for a ride ?

mikcatta

I used the mTicket facility for my bus journey yesterday, and the transaction (a whopping £2) had to be authorised in my banking app, which I did without issue. When I returned to their app, I saw I had two tickets, despite only authorising the payment for one, and indeed my bank statement showed two transactions, one at 12:19 and a further one at 12:20.

I used First's refund page to try and get a refund for the 2nd ticket. Unfortunately it asks for three pieces of data and only provides two input boxes, so always fails to validate. I managed to get through on their live chat, and a refund is due in 3-5days. So they can take payments in seconds, but when it comes to getting your money back due to faults in their system, they are allowed to drag their feet? Further more, I spent over an hour going backwards and forwards to try and get resolution to an issue, that is not my fault, as if my time is free.

I have asked my bank, Starling, why they allowed a 2nd transaction to go through without authorisation and thus far they have dodged the question and instead said I need to go back to the retailer and request "explicit consent" that they were only claiming one transaction, despite the fact I only authorised a single payment. In this case the amount was small, and I had money in the account to cover it without penalty, but had circumstances been different this might of caused me big financial troubles.

So, the question is, if I authorise payment of one transaction can the retailer then re-use that authorisation again and again and again to drain my account?  The answer to that appears to be Yes, it can. Starling bank say it's not their fault that the retailer can re-claim using the same authorisation!

Anyone know any different?

Nearlyold

Not sure that you'd expect Starling to request an authorisation from you for every £2 transaction, unless it's an exceptional amount or suspicious in some way I'd expect them to request authorisation for every n-th transaction.

Yes it's a bit annoying to wait a few days for a refund, as far as I'm aware refund transactions of this type always take longer than the initial purchase to appear on your account largely because the sale transaction appears as a pending where as a pending refund doesn't show in your account

Aylesbury_Duck

Can you set up your Starling account so that it asks for authorisation for every single transaction, no matter how small?  If not, find a bank that provides that service.

Grumpy_chap

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

elsien

I managed to make two donations to charity using Starling in a supermarket. Tapped the card reader, authorised with my PIN nothing appeared to have gone through, did it again and on the way home  my phone showed the two donations. 

I’ve put it down to user error and not checking carefully enough. Haven’t tried to get it back because it’s for charity. 

mikcatta

Grumpy_chap said:

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile

The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  

mikcatta

elsien said:

I managed to make two donations to charity using Starling in a supermarket. Tapped the card reader, authorised with my PIN nothing appeared to have gone through, did it again and on the way home  my phone showed the two donations. 

I’ve put it down to user error and not checking carefully enough. Haven’t tried to get it back because it’s for charity. 

Yes I agree when it's a charity, the same rules don't apply. I looked at the 2nd ticket that I had purchased and it had an expiry date of Jan '24 and as my use of the buses is rather sporadic, I considered that it would be a waste if I didn't revoke it.

born_again

mikcatta said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile

The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  

How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...

mikcatta

born_again said:

mikcatta said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile

The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  

How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...

Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 

born_again

mikcatta said:

born_again said:

mikcatta said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile

The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  

How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...

Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 

But again, how are they to know that? 

Retailer process payment, as far as bank is concerned, you have authorised it. 

Sorry if you don't like it, but that is the way the system works.

mikcatta

born_again said:

mikcatta said:

born_again said:

mikcatta said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I love the thread title - it is the purpose of the bus company to take you for a ride

An obvious question (and I noted the transaction times you mentioned in the OP), but is the second transaction for the return ticket?

Finally, and I don't have a Starling account, but I assume the mTicket facility is a form of contactless payment. 
It is usual with contactless payments (assuming the Starling facility is similar to a credit / debit card facility in how it works) that the service provider requests authorisation every so often (I think it is based on either total value of transactions or number of transactions).  It may have just been coincidence that the first bus ticket fell at the transaction trigger that required authorisation.

I have also had requests for authorisation when the transaction is flagged as atypical.  Once that is cleared, similar repeat transaction are no longer atypical.  Let's consider that I have a record of transactions paying for chauffeured limousine and then I buy a bus ticket. The bus flags as "atypical" but once i have travelled by bus, the finance service provider no longer sees it as atypical that I made another bus journey.

Finally, I can see how you would have made two transactions for the journey.  Touch in and the bus driver sees the transaction as declined on the terminal.  You log in an authorise that transaction so it goes through, but the driver cannot see that - the terminal still shows the decline (I assume that the now authorised transaction does not show back to the contactless terminal on the bus).  So you tap again, the driver sees you as accepted and allows you to board.  The finance service has seen that as two transactions - it is a mismatch between the finance authorisation and the contactless terminal.

As others said, you may be able to request that every transaction requires authorisation.  I would find that highly inconvenient if my contactless payments always required authorisation.  In the case of contactless tap in for a bus journey, requiring authorisation every time might not achieve the result desired.  I can quite see that the sequence of taps would show as declined at the contactless terminal on the bus and the online authorisations would not then reveal themselves back to the driver at the time.  You would be taking a chance as to whether the driver declined boarding or took pity and allowed you to board "without a ticket" (which is how it would appear to the driver.)

Sorry - there is no absolute definitive answer in that, but a few considerations as to how and what might have occured.

Hope that helps.

I am glad you liked the title of the thread and it raised a smile

The mTicket facility is provided by FirstBuses as a way to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the bus. Once purchased, you then scan the QR code via the drivers terminal and off you go on your merry way. It is meant to be simpler than using your card.

I only purchased 1 ticket via their app (for £2), but for some unknown reason, it glitched and despite only authorising 1 transaction, it resulted in 2 tickets. Both of which appeared in the FirstBus app and also both appeared on my bank statement.

My concern is that having only made 1 transaction (purchasing a single fare for 1 journey only), why did the system allow FirstBuses to take it twice. I do agree that if every contactless transaction had to be authorised, that would be a right pain. However, in this instance I only authorised (via my bank app) the purchase of 1 ticket. Surely the system should be clever enough to say, you've taken the monies, if you want more then you should ask to be re-authorised.

Starling say that once the merchant has that authorisation, they are free to re-use it again without a 2nd authorisation. I presume there is a time limit to that.

So the question remains, if I permitted FirstBuses to take a single transaction from my account, should Starling allow them to take it twice? In this instance the amount was tiny and there is no issue waiting for a refund.  

How are Starling to know you only wanted to make one payment?

How long ago was this, as payments do not debit your account in live time, so the phrase "So they can take payments in seconds" is not correct. They authorise & ringfence the amount, but they are not taken at that point. Both may not debit. 

many people complain when payments go for security checks. Others complain when they don't, banks can not win...

Quite simply, if I authorise one payment, expect the bank to only pay one payment to the merchant. 

But again, how are they to know that? 

Retailer process payment, as far as bank is concerned, you have authorised it. 

Sorry if you don't like it, but that is the way the system works.

Authorised one payment, not two