No stopping fine but says no parking or waiting on the ticket

Tah_11

Hi everyone, I received a speculative invoice from national parking control for “no parking or waiting at any time” in St Thomas Hospital, Westminster. I stopped for less than 1 minute, just the time it took someone to get out of the car. According to the AA “A 'no waiting' or 'no parking' sign lets a driver stop temporarily, maybe to let out a passenger or unload some goods, but you can't linger there” and since I stopped to let out a passenger and the time I was there was 1 minute according to the letter, this should be enough to dismiss the fine.

When I go on the website, the evidence provided does show a photograph of a ‘no stopping’ sign as well but the letter only refers to ‘no parking or waiting at any time’.

I guess the first step would be to copy and paste the blue text from the newbies thread and send the appeal and once they reject this I then ignore any further correspondence unless they decide to take me to court in which case I present my case in front of a judge… would the fine stay at £60 or £100 or could I be hit with further penalties for not paying etc?

It seems like the best course of action is to write to the PALS but what should I mention in this email..? I was thinking about just mentioning the poorly displayed sign as you drive in, rather it should be near the bay where most people are likely to stop.

I have been there many times and stopped in the exact spot to drop off before, so I assume this change is somewhat recent. They have added a no stopping sign but it is so badly placed. The sign is on what seems to be a container of some sort. It isn’t even facing the cars as they drive in instead it’s parallel to the driver so the chances of anyone seeing it are slim. The sign should really be placed near the stopping point to make it clear to members they are not allowed to stop here.

Another thing that a few threads were discussing was a grace period to try and digest any signage etc.

The google images of the hospital are 6 years ago so are out of date and because I am a new member I don’t think I’m allowed to share any pictures or links yet.

Should I email the DVLA asking them why they released my personal information regarding a stopping charge which had nothing to do with parking.

I think the best course of action would be to appeal with the blue writing from the newbies thread as the registered keeper and add the fact that the reason stated on the letter is for “no parking or waiting” - both of which I was not doing and include the definition of the AA in there.

Thank you for reading, all advice is appreciated

Fruitcake

It is not a fine, and there will be no penalties involved. Additional charges are permitted by the UK courts if it gets that far, but not fake add-on debt collector fees.

You are right that stopping is not parking, but neither the government, the DVLA, landowners, end especially unregulated parking companies care.

You could try a complaint to PALS and your MP, but as advised above, it is likely to get you nowhere. You could ask the hospital when the signs went up because there is supposed to be a bedding in period after new signs are installed before PCNs are issued.

Other than that, appeal using the template in blue text, and get photos of the site and signage and post them here, then wait to see what happens next.

Not_A_Hope

A PALS cancellation is the best option to try.

No doubt the PPC will reject anything you say or any mitigating circumstances. That earns them nothing.

Google Jopson v Homeguard. That is a persuasive case and the judge clearly separated stopping for a short duration and parking.

I& you haven’t already get some photos yourself of the inadequate signage.

Tah_11

Thank you guys for the responses. This is the appeal I am about to submit, any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

The allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

The IOC CCTV code of conduct states that warning signs should be placed where CCTV is in use. No such signs were in place in the location where this charge was issued therefore it is invalid. This has been confirmed at Adjudicator by the case of Rachel Johnson v Wirral. Quote form the code of conduct:

"You must let people know that they are in an area where CCTV surveillance is being carried out. The most effective way of doing this is by using prominently placed signs at the entrance to the CCTV zone and reinforcing this with further signs inside the area. ....... Clear and prominent signs are particularly important where the cameras themselves are very discreet, or in locations where people might not expect to be under surveillance. As a general rule, signs should be more prominent and frequent where it would otherwise be less obvious to people that they are on CCTV

Signs should:

• Be clearly visible and readable;

• Contain details of the organisation operating the system, the purpose for using CCTV and who to contact about the scheme (where these things are not obvious to those being monitored); and

• Be an appropriate size depending on context, for example, whether they are viewed by pedestrians or car drivers."

3. I do not believe that the no stopping sign was sufficient at the time of the alleged offence. There were other vehicles parked within the vicinity and the sign displayed to the left of the driver was for 'no parking or waiting' and not for 'no stopping'.

I do not believe that the above mentioned guidelines have been satisfied nor the case for ST Thomas Hospital, as I did not see any signage to warn of CCTV, nor do I believe that it is justified to be observing vehicles at 19:09 for minor alleged contraventions. I do not believe that a contravention has taken place on the pure basis that my vehicle was not causing obstruction nor a danger to other road users, hence I trust the PCN will be cancelled taking the above into consideration and the fact that this is a first time alleged contravention on my part.

Tah_11

Also thank you guys for the advice, I did get some photos of the inadequate signs

Umkomaas

Is that your appeal to the parking firm?  No matter what you write in it, it will have no beneficial result, so hardly worth straying from the forum's blue text initial appeal. 

Have you exhausted the PALS route?

Tah_11

Okay thank you. I have not yet written to the PALS. Should I write to them first? And should I just mention the inadequate signage to them?

Coupon-mad

Please re-read the NEWBIES thread and do this in the right order.

Le_Kirk

The text for appeals written in BLUE is slightly different to your version: -

The If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

You missed out the beginning of the sentence.

Tah_11

@Coupon-mad thanks for clarifying, I just checked that I need to appeal to the PALS first before making an appeal to parking company but the appeal time on the ticket is 28 days, which are basically up today (21 December).

@Le_Kirk yes I changed it because the penalty is because I stopped there for one minute. 

Le_Kirk

Tah_11 said:

@Le_Kirk yes I changed it because the penalty is because I stopped there for one minute. 

Then your sentence does not make sense.