Smart heating controls

ThisIsWeird

jennifernil said:

Yes, standard backplate.  These are not the original timers (from the mid 90s) but ones my OH fitted about 10 years back.  He is good at that sort of thing.

At present the timers just turn the boilers on/off at the  desired times, temperature in the rooms depends on the TRVs, when these all close the boiler(s) turn off, it is a fairly simple system.  Heating never needs to be on for longer than 4 hours in one go.

Really, what we need are just timers that can be set remotely, but such a thing does not seem to exist.

We cannot fit Smart TRVs as the kids are prone to fiddling with the TRVs.

For the two big halls at least, ie one room with its own boiler and wall 'stat, all the TRV heads should be left on 'max' in any case, or simply removed. The room stat then determines that room's temp.

For the other boiler and its rooms, that looks like staff-controlled, so hopefully no idle fingers. Having said that, you'd tend to have the wall 'stat in a common area such as the entrance hall, and each other room would then have its individual control via the manual TRVs. 

jennifernil

Typhoon2000 said:

Well Tado ( and I am sure others) have child locks to disable manual control of the TRV. So you just set the timer and temperature on the app. You can also have a wireless temperature sensor in the room at a height where children won’t get to it, for manual override of the temperature if needed.

I was not thinking that the problem would be little fingers adjusting the temperatures, rather that it is too easy for the control heads to be dislodged from the actual valves, having had a couple of our ones come off in my hand!   The smart TRV heads are also expensive, minimum £40 each, and we have 14 radiators in the building, so would rather not spend so much money on something which would be "nice to have" rather than essential.

And, unfortunately, anything easily removed, that we install, has to be thief-proof as we also hire out the building for dancing classes and birthday parties etc.    All the users are generally bad at securing the building while it is in use.   There are locks provided,  but they are too frequently not used.   Even a thermostat would have to be secured in some way, and protected from flying balls.

There are extensive grounds on a lower level than the building, and when out there you cannot see the entrance door, which unfortunately is conveniently close to the street if you are happy to jump over a low barrier.  In the past handbags have been stolen from the building when the door was left unlocked.

We have even had 2 wheelie  bins stolen, but that is another story!

ThisIsWeird

In our hall, one of the Hives is in a side room in which the rad doesn't even work. So, when it's scheduled to come on, it will never reach the set temp.
That doesn't actually matter in practice, as this circuit serves the smaller classrooms and offices, so each has a manual room stat for individual control. So, yes, that Hive is essentially a boiler 'timer', but one that allows remote programming - the main benefit, as the hall's use can change quite quickly.
The other is in the main hall, which has around 4 rads in it. In here, the Hive does the job it's meant to - timing and controlling that room's temp. So, the manual TRVs in there are left fully open - which doesn't stop some folk from messing, of course.
If we had concerns about damage - we don't, really, even tho' footie is sometimes played in there - or theft - not really an interesting thing to pinch - then the Hives could be secured behind wire grills like you get around flue terminals. They would only require access every 1-2 years for batteries. A slim mesh with large spacing should even allow a finger to be inserted for override if needed.
I agree - I'd avoid Smart TRVs due to cost, risk, and small added benefit.

ThisIsWeird

A thought.
There are lots of Smart switches available that allow, say, a 13A plug to be controlled and scheduled via various Apps.
From what I recall, these are both cheap, and work directly via the WiFi router?
In which case, that could be your solution, if scheduling of timings is the main requirement, and the manual TRVs can take care of the actual temps.
Should be very simple to wire; the boilers still receive a permanent live feed as they currently do, but the 'switched live' control wire - currently being switched by the Danfoss - would instead be supplied via a plug top, plugged into the Smart switch. Something like that.
So, each boiler would just have scheduled 'timings' as they currently do, either on or off.

ThisIsWeird

Could it really be this simple and cheap?!

Three of, say, them: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225870863361? and the Smart Life/TUYA Smart phone App.

£20. Sorted. Possibly...

ThisIsWeird

Jennifernil, are you tempted at all to try these Smart switches?

jennifernil

At the moment....no.....as I cannot  figure out how that would work!

I can set the current timers fine, I can even work the (now) 2 tado systems in our house, but these smart switches I am not familiar with.

silvercar

We have 2 boilers in our house, one combi and one with a hot water tank. Both are controlled by the same hive account. 2 hive thermostats, each parked in a room with radiators from the relevant boiler.

ThisIsWeird

jennifernil said:

At the moment....no.....as I cannot  figure out how that would work!

I can set the current timers fine, I can even work the (now) 2 tado systems in our house, but these smart switches I am not familiar with.

The Apps, as far as I know, give you full time scheduling, and should be easy to set up. Just a series of ons and offs. In other words, exactly what your current Danfoss programmers are doing - they only tell the boiler to come on at this time, and off at that one. The TRVs control the actual heating.
These Smart switches would do exactly what the Danfosses do - switch on and off. The difference being that you have remote control over the schedule, and can change these timings in seconds when needed.
You don't actually need a Smart Prog Stat like a Hive or Wiser or Tado in your hall, as that would add complications such as having to have the rooms with these new wall-mounted 'stats having their TRV heads removed/ turned up to max.
To fit these Smart switches would need an understanding of the wiring involved, but it should be very straight forward - an L and N, and two other terminals to do the switching. They'd need containing inside a suitable box, as they have accessible terminals, but again that shouldn't be an issue - a double pattress box with plain cover would likely hold all three. 
The only real issues are - are the associated Apps easy to use, and will it function reliably...

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said:

jennifernil said:

At the moment....no.....as I cannot  figure out how that would work!

I can set the current timers fine, I can even work the (now) 2 tado systems in our house, but these smart switches I am not familiar with.

The Apps, as far as I know, give you full time scheduling, and should be easy to set up. Just a series of ons and offs. In other words, exactly what your current Danfoss programmers are doing - they only tell the boiler to come on at this time, and off at that one. The TRVs control the actual heating.
These Smart switches would do exactly what the Danfosses do - switch on and off. The difference being that you have remote control over the schedule, and can change these timings in seconds when needed.
You don't actually need a Smart Prog Stat like a Hive or Wiser or Tado in your hall, as that would add complications such as having to have the rooms with these new wall-mounted 'stats having their TRV heads removed/ turned up to max.
To fit these Smart switches would need an understanding of the wiring involved, but it should be very straight forward - an L and N, and two other terminals to do the switching. They'd need containing inside a suitable box, as they have accessible terminals, but again that shouldn't be an issue - a double pattress box with plain cover would likely hold all three. 
The only real issues are - are the associated Apps easy to use, and will it function reliably...

A couple of points here - You do not leave the TRVs to "control the heating". All they do is restrict the flow of water through a radiator as the room temperature rises. When the flow is shut off, the boiler starts to overheat and will throttle back or even shut down (and start to short cycle). Not the most efficient way to run a modern heating system.

Using these smart switches will work with some boilers as long as they can be controlled with a switched live - Some boilers use a "no volt" line, others, a low voltage terminal. Feeding 240V mains voltage in to either type of terminal risks blowing up the PCB which will cost a fortune to repair (and won't be covered under warranty or insurance).

If you do not know what you are doing with electrics and boilers, call in an expert for proper advice.