British Gas credit use (cost + debt), had enough for 4 years so considering court action.

tifo

Scot_39 said:

You clearly - for whatever reason ended up in a bit of a mess financially - possibly health - possibly not - and ended up in serious debt on your energy account - and hence you now have a prepay meter.

Energy suppliers are not charities - they do not pay for your debts - other customers do - and many are clearly angry (read the threads here on additional £16 proposal from Ofgem for Apr 24 cap). Others - myself included - see it for what it is - simply an additional amount as a direct consequence of govt policy designed to protect the genuinely vulnerable

And whilst BGas made some errors - the faulty prepay cards (although that sounds a very high rate of failure - and B Gas don't make the meters) and initial debt reduction - they have now fitted a smart meter - and you rejected the ombudsman's solution for the latter. Note B Gas may have implemented anyway.

Consider the reality of the situation - despite owing at times nearly £2000 in their eyes - (at current base rate £1841 = £96.65pa in charges - more than double the profit allowance including any debt interest costs - c£46 built into Jan cap for TDCV users)

- you still have a gas supply (others less vulnerable can legally be cut off)

- you still get emergency credit facilities when have not / cannot top up - temporarily increasing debt - and - only as a guess so could be wrong - repayment rate on next top-up

- you have what seems a very generous nearly 10 years debt plan to repay initial debt - possibly interest free

- you still receive good support - e.g. engineer call out for top up failures.

You by sounds of it need to destress re past situation if can - edit - there's clear a lot of pent up frustration / anger - and emotion doesn't always help and often obscures the case - and concentrate on the numbers.

If not retrospectively - certainly going forwards.

Credits , debt and usage deductions and any repeats of emergency credit / post emergency deductions if different (judging by need to reestablish credit on cut off - suspect that is instant repayment for use - so drops out of the mix - but not 100% sure - last time family had prepay - it took 50p coins)

Once you have a grip on the new data -  perhaps a chat with an energy debt advisor at likes of Citizens advice might come in handy.

And as above posts - electric heating is only cheaper than gas if use a lot less of it as raw prices c4x per kWh - throw in boiler efficiency to the mix - possible less - maybe 3x - lower if a really old boiler or one with permanent pilot light).

If your heating rooms to comparable temperatures - rather than only heating certain rooms or heating the person techniques in those rooms - then it could even be costing a lot more. A modern gas boiler and good use of radiator TRVs in unused rooms - could for many be far cheaper.

Thanks for the post, you seem not to have understood my situation in some aspects.

"for whatever reason ended up in a bit of a mess financially - possibly health - possibly not".

The health contributed to the fitting of a prepayment meter as i was not in a good state to fully deal with the debt collection, both physically and financially. Note that British Gas would not come to a payment arrangement and they were, and are, aware of my conditions and financial situation.

"Energy suppliers are not charities - they do not pay for your debts".

No, they're not, they're profit making businesses for the benefit of their shareholders BUT there are rules and regulations in place, and financial help, for the vulnerable. I've had no help in the 4 years i've had the prepayment meter and no help before.

"you rejected the ombudsman's solution for the latter".

There was no real solution from the Ombudsman. As usual.

"you still have a gas supply (others less vulnerable can legally be cut off)"

I have supply because I top up, I have no choice, otherwise the meter would disconnect the gas supply.

"you still receive good support - e.g. engineer call out for top up failures".

This is a standard service, they're not doing me any favours.

"concentrate on the numbers".

That's my whole case !! Numbers. I need to know where my credit is going and at the moment i top up with a LOT of credit and there's no transparency from British Gas. I've cut down my gas usage (through not using central heating as much I think, and it's a new Worcester boiler fitted March 2022, and at times the house is freezing). Annual gas usage has gone from 14,000 kWh to 7,000 kWh (British Gas figures) yet I top up double what British Gas estimate. So, where's my credit going?

I don't think you believe that i'm a vulnerable customer but I do. Managing the prepayment meter outside is difficult for me and I have to do this only because of British Gas 'systems'. The home monitor has never connected to the smart meter and the online account either shows credit balance from a few days to weeks ago or is at £0.00. So I have no choice but to go outside every few days and check the credit balance. The meter takes daily credit of £1 to £4.50 and i have no idea how much it has taken until i manually check. It changes with every top up. For example, if i top up £50 tomorrow, it might take £2 a day from that credit and it lasts 25 days or it might take £4 a day and it lasts 12 days. I just don't know and this is exactly what happens.

Most of the time i check the meter outside my fingers go numb and white because I have Raynaud's. The meter is in the ground and i am not going to lie on my stomach to read the small display, the digits on which cannot clearly be seen many times as they are light against the green light. So I have to check again later.

I also have visual and mobility issues with gout, which may not seem a great thing to those that don't suffer from it but it is extremely painful when severe or moderate and in that situation I still have to check the meter every few days. I may not be able to stand on my feet or bend them to check the meter but I have no choice.

The British Gas online account is clearly not fit for purpose. The IHD also isn't for me. It may work for those who have an internal meter but for me it doesn't. Sometimes British Gas say 'plug it in and put it next to the meter' but both my meters are outside (I know the hub from the electricity meter is used). What am I do do?

tifo

Arvato have not sent any information from their debt collection activities when the prepayment meter was fitted. The same Arvato who was in the news in January 2022 and BG don't use anymore.

British Gas asked Arvato to send the data to them so that it can be sent to me. This is under my DSAR. I received no debt collection data from British Gas and enquired why not.

Gerry1

I assume you're on BG's Priority Services Register?  You may be able to get them to move your meter to somewhere more accessible so that you can read it more easily.

Here's what BG say:-

Free meter relocation

If you need to switch your gas supply off in an emergency and can’t reach the safety valve on your gas meter, we may be able to move your meter for you.

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/priority-service-register

Scot_39

I would have hoped smart prepay meters etc would have provided better information as to usage at least.

Wonder how much is just B Gas IT and how much is inherent ?

At least to cover your concerns over randomness of credit usage and need to monitor credit before cut off.

Do smart prepay work with apps such as bright or loop - or are those only useful for credit meters ?

IHD's not working in flats or larger homes is sadly common - they only have a max theroretical range on older generation of iirc 10-15m in clear air - stick a wall or door or 2 in the way - the signal quickly dies - a quick google comes up with So Energy recommending just 2-3m to their customers and avoiding walls.

Have you asked B Gas whether a dual band or really pushing the boat out even newer alt-han technology - is currently avaiable from them - and if suitable - available for you ?

See 

https://www.smartme.co.uk/home-area-network.html

Given health issues - you really ought to be towards the front of the queue - for some sort of better solution.

Scot_39

tifo said:

Scot_39 said:

You clearly - for whatever reason ended up in a bit of a mess financially - possibly health - possibly not - and ended up in serious debt on your energy account - and hence you now have a prepay meter.

Energy suppliers are not charities - they do not pay for your debts - other customers do - and many are clearly angry (read the threads here on additional £16 proposal from Ofgem for Apr 24 cap). Others - myself included - see it for what it is - simply an additional amount as a direct consequence of govt policy designed to protect the genuinely vulnerable

And whilst BGas made some errors - the faulty prepay cards (although that sounds a very high rate of failure - and B Gas don't make the meters) and initial debt reduction - they have now fitted a smart meter - and you rejected the ombudsman's solution for the latter. Note B Gas may have implemented anyway.

Consider the reality of the situation - despite owing at times nearly £2000 in their eyes - (at current base rate £1841 = £96.65pa in charges - more than double the profit allowance including any debt interest costs - c£46 built into Jan cap for TDCV users)

- you still have a gas supply (others less vulnerable can legally be cut off)

- you still get emergency credit facilities when have not / cannot top up - temporarily increasing debt - and - only as a guess so could be wrong - repayment rate on next top-up

- you have what seems a very generous nearly 10 years debt plan to repay initial debt - possibly interest free

- you still receive good support - e.g. engineer call out for top up failures.

You by sounds of it need to destress re past situation if can - edit - there's clear a lot of pent up frustration / anger - and emotion doesn't always help and often obscures the case - and concentrate on the numbers.

If not retrospectively - certainly going forwards.

Credits , debt and usage deductions and any repeats of emergency credit / post emergency deductions if different (judging by need to reestablish credit on cut off - suspect that is instant repayment for use - so drops out of the mix - but not 100% sure - last time family had prepay - it took 50p coins)

Once you have a grip on the new data -  perhaps a chat with an energy debt advisor at likes of Citizens advice might come in handy.

And as above posts - electric heating is only cheaper than gas if use a lot less of it as raw prices c4x per kWh - throw in boiler efficiency to the mix - possible less - maybe 3x - lower if a really old boiler or one with permanent pilot light).

If your heating rooms to comparable temperatures - rather than only heating certain rooms or heating the person techniques in those rooms - then it could even be costing a lot more. A modern gas boiler and good use of radiator TRVs in unused rooms - could for many be far cheaper.

Thanks for the post, you seem not to have understood my situation in some aspects.

"for whatever reason ended up in a bit of a mess financially - possibly health - possibly not".

The health contributed to the fitting of a prepayment meter as i was not in a good state to fully deal with the debt collection, both physically and financially. Note that British Gas would not come to a payment arrangement and they were, and are, aware of my conditions and financial situation.

"Energy suppliers are not charities - they do not pay for your debts".

No, they're not, they're profit making businesses for the benefit of their shareholders BUT there are rules and regulations in place, and financial help, for the vulnerable. I've had no help in the 4 years i've had the prepayment meter and no help before.

"you rejected the ombudsman's solution for the latter".

There was no real solution from the Ombudsman. As usual.

"you still have a gas supply (others less vulnerable can legally be cut off)"

I have supply because I top up, I have no choice, otherwise the meter would disconnect the gas supply.

"you still receive good support - e.g. engineer call out for top up failures".

This is a standard service, they're not doing me any favours.

"concentrate on the numbers".

That's my whole case !! Numbers. I need to know where my credit is going and at the moment i top up with a LOT of credit and there's no transparency from British Gas. I've cut down my gas usage (through not using central heating as much I think, and it's a new Worcester boiler fitted March 2022, and at times the house is freezing). Annual gas usage has gone from 14,000 kWh to 7,000 kWh (British Gas figures) yet I top up double what British Gas estimate. So, where's my credit going?

I don't think you believe that i'm a vulnerable customer but I do. Managing the prepayment meter outside is difficult for me and I have to do this only because of British Gas 'systems'. The home monitor has never connected to the smart meter and the online account either shows credit balance from a few days to weeks ago or is at £0.00. So I have no choice but to go outside every few days and check the credit balance. The meter takes daily credit of £1 to £4.50 and i have no idea how much it has taken until i manually check. It changes with every top up. For example, if i top up £50 tomorrow, it might take £2 a day from that credit and it lasts 25 days or it might take £4 a day and it lasts 12 days. I just don't know and this is exactly what happens.

Most of the time i check the meter outside my fingers go numb and white because I have Raynaud's. The meter is in the ground and i am not going to lie on my stomach to read the small display, the digits on which cannot clearly be seen many times as they are light against the green light. So I have to check again later.

I also have visual and mobility issues with gout, which may not seem a great thing to those that don't suffer from it but it is extremely painful when severe or moderate and in that situation I still have to check the meter every few days. I may not be able to stand on my feet or bend them to check the meter but I have no choice.

The British Gas online account is clearly not fit for purpose. The IHD also isn't for me. It may work for those who have an internal meter but for me it doesn't. Sometimes British Gas say 'plug it in and put it next to the meter' but both my meters are outside (I know the hub from the electricity meter is used). What am I do do?

Re the credit usage rate - Gas sc is now c30p, unit rate was c7p now c7.4p iirc.  So £1 was / is now less than c10kWh.

A gas boiler can use that in less than an hour to heat the radiators and only really start heating rooms to any reasonable level.

4.50 however  thats more like 60kWhto me is a lot.

But suspect others with cheap gas heating will be using that regularly on cold days - even in smaller properties if heating towards high end like or above  c18-21C of nhs // age uk advice etc.

But on my E10 that 60kWh would cost me nearer £12.50 a day. I really don't heat to high temps as a result.  £4.50 buys me just under 20kWh at my off peak rate - and just 11kWh at my peak rate inc SC.

During one of the beast from east c2018 I did hit c£8 per day for about 2 days - better that than freezing or burst pipes though.

So be greatful you have gas heating.

Nhs advice 18-21 - if hit 18 in living room my heating is turned down or off - aim 15 min -17. Rest of house at 14-15, 16 means again I turn down.

Now well into 50s - layering to cope.

My heating went on in earnest late Nov early Dec this year - but has been down, to min, off completely and back on and is being turned up again this week as temps drop to mid single figure daytime highs.

Range - total electric (I have no gas) -  approx 7-25kWh.

Heat even 1 degree let alone 4-6 higher at nhs 18-21C etc  my bills would be £100s more pa. 

The much bandied figure of £100 per degree C - well that's over 1000kWh of gas at todays prices.

Focused obviously on coldest days in Nov-Mar here in Midlands  in recent milder winters.

So £4.5 to 1 is perfectly understandable.


You just need a better way of seeing it day to day  - apps or better meter tech - if BG online - do they do own app ?.

Never tried my suppliers revised app - the first version  I tried gave no decent usage data just monthly statements etc.

molerat

A few years back I worked out that with gas and my antique inefficient boiler in mid winter I could heat my whole house 24/7, including background heating the conservatory, and provide as much hot water as needed for the same price as running a single 1.5 kW electric heater for 24 hours a day.  That still stands.  With a modern efficient boiler the difference will be even greater.  Heating with electric when you have gas and a modern boiler is nothing short of madness.

MeteredOut

molerat said:

A few years back I worked out that with gas and my antique inefficient boiler in mid winter I could heat my whole house 24/7, including background heating the conservatory, and provide as much hot water as needed for the same price as running a single 1.5 kW electric heater for 24 hours a day.  That still stands.  With a modern efficient boiler the difference will be even greater.  Heating with electric when you have gas and a modern boiler is nothing short of madness.

How does that work if you're overnight heating at 7.5p/kWh versus 7.4p/kWh for gas, but where the electric heating is more efficient?

molerat

MeteredOut said:

molerat said:

A few years back I worked out that with gas and my antique inefficient boiler in mid winter I could heat my whole house 24/7, including background heating the conservatory, and provide as much hot water as needed for the same price as running a single 1.5 kW electric heater for 24 hours a day.  That still stands.  With a modern efficient boiler the difference will be even greater.  Heating with electric when you have gas and a modern boiler is nothing short of madness.

How does that work if you're overnight heating at 7.5p/kWh versus 7.4p/kWh for gas, but where the electric heating is more efficient?

The cheapest current E7 night rate I can find is 14.18p with 36.37p day rate which means the sums still stand.  This comparison was purely based on standard rate electricity being used where gas heating was installed based on the misguided idea that heating a small area with electric will be cheaper than heating a larger space with gas.

QrizB

MeteredOut said:

molerat said:

A few years back I worked out that with gas and my antique inefficient boiler in mid winter I could heat my whole house 24/7, including background heating the conservatory, and provide as much hot water as needed for the same price as running a single 1.5 kW electric heater for 24 hours a day.  That still stands.  With a modern efficient boiler the difference will be even greater.  Heating with electric when you have gas and a modern boiler is nothing short of madness.

How does that work if you're overnight heating at 7.5p/kWh versus 7.4p/kWh for gas, but where the electric heating is more efficient?

You're talking about an EV tariff. The OP doesn't have an EV tariff, or an EV.

gt94sss2

Not directly related but I wonder if anyone has mentioned https://britishgasenergytrust.org.uk/ to @tifo

You may want to ask them for assistance including their energy debt grant programme