Electric Heaters in new build home and lack of insulation

Eldi_Dos

MultiFuelBurner said:

Eldi_Dos said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Eldi_Dos said:

Netexporter said:

Collective action may also make it possible to get an affordable mains gas supply.

 with gas at its ludicrously low present price.

Serious question but do you forsee gas prices rising as domestic demand for it drops.

No but there could be am emissions tax to levy as it's phased out to stop everyone hanging onto their inefficient 20 year old gas boilers.

Ulez for domestic gas

I think the recent Uxbridge by election will make politicians wary about such a course.

Eventually something will have to give when the final dates are given and as you say those hanging on could expect very cheap gas as demand outstrips supply. Or do the suppliers just stop drilling for gas as supply lessens to raise prices?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next 10-20years but I do think some sort of extra get rid of gas tax could be included in the price per kWh at some point.

With a estimated 23 million gas boilers in the UK politicans are going to be conscious of voters reaction.Difficult one to sell.

MultiFuelBurner

Eldi_Dos said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Eldi_Dos said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Eldi_Dos said:

Netexporter said:

Collective action may also make it possible to get an affordable mains gas supply.

 with gas at its ludicrously low present price.

Serious question but do you forsee gas prices rising as domestic demand for it drops.

No but there could be am emissions tax to levy as it's phased out to stop everyone hanging onto their inefficient 20 year old gas boilers.

Ulez for domestic gas

I think the recent Uxbridge by election will make politicians wary about such a course.

Eventually something will have to give when the final dates are given and as you say those hanging on could expect very cheap gas as demand outstrips supply. Or do the suppliers just stop drilling for gas as supply lessens to raise prices?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next 10-20years but I do think some sort of extra get rid of gas tax could be included in the price per kWh at some point.

With a estimated 23 million gas boilers in the UK politicans are going to be conscious of voters reaction.Difficult one to sell.

But those 23 million need to see the harm they are doing to the planet so it's not just a one sided sell.

It's going to take time...decades....but let's all wait to see what happens.

Did those hydrogen gas trials ever go ahead?

However this should be discussed on another thread this is detailing this poor OP's thread.

M25

QrizB said:

Everyone who's saying "get gas CH" or "fit a log burner" is missing the point.

No, they're cold and skint. The builder has already laughed all the way to the bank and is going to do nothing just like the builders who did (and are doing) nothing to external cladding that is inflammable.

It's a crap house with the heat source they have at the moment and it'll always be crap until they get a proper heating source. The house needs to be much smaller or they need more heat.

And there's nothing passive about the house from what I can see that's a ridiculous claim to my thinking of what a real passive house is.

The only way they're going to feel warm is getting a new heating source.

The house will still cost a lot to heat but they will feel warm.

MultiFuelBurner

M25 said:

QrizB said:

Everyone who's saying "get gas CH" or "fit a log burner" is missing the point.

No, they're cold and skint. The builder has already laughed all the way to the bank and is going to do nothing just like the builders who did (and are doing) nothing to external cladding that is inflammable.

It's a crap house with the heat source they have at the moment and it'll always be crap until they get a proper heating source. The house needs to be much smaller or they need more heat.

And there's nothing passive about the house from what I can see that's a ridiculous claim to my thinking of what a real passive house is.

The only way they're going to feel warm is getting a new heating source.

The house will still cost a lot to heat but they will feel warm.

The builder hasn't sold this as a passive house. That was the OP assumption just based on a high EPC score.

So before we all shoot off in different directions let's bring it back a little.

So far I have read some.good points. Summarised below

1) The OP says all neighbours are having problems heating their houses. So time for some collective action at least a show of force from all the houses they built.

2) The documentation shared by the OP doesn't suggest this was sold as a passive house

3) We can all agree the builder has skimped on the heating source in a big way

4) So far the builder does not appear to have broken any laws (despite us all knowing what they have done on the heating is just to save money)

5) Except for the heating the house is not crap. It's been supplied with solar and batteries and heat pump for hot water. The EPC score is good and low thermal transmittance for walls, floor and roof. It may be crap in that it is a new build and some people don't like that but it's not a crap house.

So what could the OP do next?

A.) Collective site complaint get all neighbours to sign the complaint about the inefficient heating. Citing any verbal indication any were given when buying passive houses (but I still think this was just the OP's misunderstanding of the EPC score)

B.) Research how much it would cost to replace the heating with a heat pump or add to it with air to air multi split systems.

C.) Baseline how much it will cost you to hear the house you are going to have to turn them all on and set the temperature to you comfort level 18-21oC as an example and then see if they are adequate or not. Until you have put them on and left them on you won't know what temperature they can get the house to and at what energy usage.

Good luck with you fight OP

M25

MultiFuelBurner said:

The builder hasn't sold this as a passive house. That was the OP assumption just based on a high EPC score.

I don't think anyone has said the builder claimed it was anything other than a bog standard house with a few addons and ticked boxes so they get planning permission. The house is all fur coat and no knickers.

The builder will be fully covered I assume but there's no harm in speaking to neighbours but it could be a good idea to contact the NHBC (builders' lackey group) as I'm sure the house should be a certain standard and there is some warranty.

https://www.nhbc.co.uk/homeowners

It's a terrible situation but  taking action or complaining is a long term project. For now the house needs heat and burning logs may be the best option. It'll look good and do its job (unlike the house).

MultiFuelBurner

M25 said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

The builder hasn't sold this as a passive house. That was the OP assumption just based on a high EPC score.

I don't think anyone has said the builder claimed it was anything other than a bog standard house with a few addons and ticked boxes so they get planning permission. The house is all fur coat and no knickers.

The builder will be fully covered I assume but there's no harm in speaking to neighbours but it could be a good idea to contact the NHBC (builders' lackey group) as I'm sure the house should be a certain standard and there is some warranty.

https://www.nhbc.co.uk/homeowners

It's a terrible situation but  taking action or complaining is a long term project. For now the house needs heat and burning logs may be the best option. It'll look good and do its job (unlike the house).

What's cheaper to install may be what the OP needs to know for a quick remedy as they say they have sunk everything into the house

Multi fuel burner (if allowed in the area the OP lives)
Multi Split air to air heatpump (may need planning as already a heat pump outside unit I presume for the hot water system)

I don't think they are going to get anywhere with the NHBC as they haven't broken any building regulations or laws but yes get the neighbours all together and present a united front. Maybe some local press and hey presto local builder backs down and sorted it out? In time as you say.

Gerry1

Make enough fuss collectively and the developer may realise that it makes more financial sense for them to take the hit and retrofit Dimplex Quantums.

Having only one site in their portfolio with lots of very unhappy customers won't look good in online searches.

If you go for Quantums, make sure they're big enough.  Running the panel heaters flat out during cold weather will give you a good idea of what's required.

ProDave

Just to add to this thread, my own real world experience from my self built low energy house, EPC A94

My house is 150 square metres, and a proper heat loss analysis says at +20 degrees inside and -10 outside (worst case but realistic here in the Highlands) the heat loss from the building will be about 2.2kW  I verified this early on in the build so the prediction was accurate.

I heat the house with a 5kW Air Source Heat pump and under floor heating.  Annual heating use is about 1400kWh of electricity or roughly 4200kW of delivered heat.  Annual heating bill under £400 for a detached house in the Highlands.

I don't claim it to be a passive house, it is not, it is built using a lot of passive house principles that is all.

I don't believe any house in the UK can run truly without any heating in the winter, I don't think the passiye hause institute say that.

One characteristic of my house with a lot if insulation everywhere, is it heats up very slowly and cools down very slowly.  If the heating stopped working it might be a day or 2 before you notice.  It relies on a steady low level of heat input to keep it warm.  I wonder if the OP turning on panel heaters for 2 hours then complaining it cools down again quickly, has only heated the air and not the fabric of the building?  Google the term "decrement delay" 

Panel heaters is a poor choice, but what else do you expect from a builder?  At least they tried harder than many.  A heat pump would have been a far better choice.  To put that into perspective my annual sub £400 heating bill would be more like £1200 with panel heaters and I would not be very impressed with that figure.

The OP should have got a full SAP with the EPC, what does it say about expected annual heating demand?

MultiFuelBurner

ProDave said:

Just to add to this thread, my own real world experience from my self built low energy house, EPC A94

My house is 150 square metres, and a proper heat loss analysis says at +20 degrees inside and -10 outside (worst case but realistic here in the Highlands) the heat loss from the building will be about 2.2kW  I verified this early on in the build so the prediction was accurate.

I heat the house with a 5kW Air Source Heat pump and under floor heating.  Annual heating use is about 1400kWh of electricity or roughly 4200kW of delivered heat.  Annual heating bill under £400 for a detached house in the Highlands.

I don't claim it to be a passive house, it is not, it is built using a lot of passive house principles that is all.

I don't believe any house in the UK can run truly without any heating in the winter, I don't think the passice hause institute say that.

One characteristic of mu house with a lot if insulation everywhere, is it heats up very slowly and cools down very slowly.  If the heating stopped working it might be a day or 2 before you notice.  It relies on a steady low level of heat input to keep it warm.  I wonder if the OP turning on panel heaters for 2 hours then complaining it cools down again quickly, has only heated the air and not the fabric of the building?

Panel heaters is a poor choice, but what else do you expect from a builder?  At least they tried harder than many.  A heat pump would have been a far better choice.  To put that into perspective my annual sub £400 heating bill would be more like £1200 with panel heaters and I would not be very impressed with that figure.

The OP should have got a full SAP with the EPC, what does it say about expected annual heating demand?

This makes sens and I think you, I and others have said they need to heat the fabric of the house, get it to a comfortable temperature for them and then see what it costs to maintain that. Even with expensive panel heaters it may well come in with all other energy use under the traditional average energy bill due to their high EPC and construction standards.

ProDave

MultiFuelBurner said:

ProDave said:

Just to add to this thread, my own real world experience from my self built low energy house, EPC A94

My house is 150 square metres, and a proper heat loss analysis says at +20 degrees inside and -10 outside (worst case but realistic here in the Highlands) the heat loss from the building will be about 2.2kW  I verified this early on in the build so the prediction was accurate.

I heat the house with a 5kW Air Source Heat pump and under floor heating.  Annual heating use is about 1400kWh of electricity or roughly 4200kW of delivered heat.  Annual heating bill under £400 for a detached house in the Highlands.

I don't claim it to be a passive house, it is not, it is built using a lot of passive house principles that is all.

I don't believe any house in the UK can run truly without any heating in the winter, I don't think the passice hause institute say that.

One characteristic of mu house with a lot if insulation everywhere, is it heats up very slowly and cools down very slowly.  If the heating stopped working it might be a day or 2 before you notice.  It relies on a steady low level of heat input to keep it warm.  I wonder if the OP turning on panel heaters for 2 hours then complaining it cools down again quickly, has only heated the air and not the fabric of the building?

Panel heaters is a poor choice, but what else do you expect from a builder?  At least they tried harder than many.  A heat pump would have been a far better choice.  To put that into perspective my annual sub £400 heating bill would be more like £1200 with panel heaters and I would not be very impressed with that figure.

The OP should have got a full SAP with the EPC, what does it say about expected annual heating demand?

This makes sens and I think you, I and others have said they need to heat the fabric of the house, get it to a comfortable temperature for them and then see what it costs to maintain that. Even with expensive panel heaters it may well come in with all other energy use under the traditional average energy bill due to their high EPC and construction standards.

And just to add to that, I use about three times as much electricity on "everything else" as I do on space and water heating.  Reducing the use of "everything else" is proving much harder.  But it shows heating is a small part of my energy bill.