Ideas to help the Energy Grid through winter

Desmond_Hume

I get this is a well meaning thought but here is my opinion on the matter.  

It’s 2023. We’re a first world country. And for some reason, we feel like we have to come up with ideas to cut energy use because our grid - allegedly - can’t cope? I mean, how nuts is that? I get not wasting energy, I really do. But not using my washing machine at a certain time of day?

The real issue here is sub-standard politicians and those involved in grid policy. That’s the problem that needs fixed.

MattMattMattUK

MikeJXE said:

When we had Covid the public were asked to stay home, yes I know it became law but I believe if they had been asked most would have done it anyway 

Why can't the national grid run a trial for everyone, dumb or smart so everyone can take part.

Just explain to the population why we need to switch off our high energy usage appliances between certain hours like 5pm - 6pm or whenever necessary 

Compliance with Covid measures was actually quite low. Yes people did not go to pubs or restaurants, but that was because they were shut. The inter-household mixing still continued on a fairly large scale, if lockdown had been strictly followed Covid would have been eliminated within two months at most (allowing for very small amounts of transmission in shops and other permitted public places). Around a third of people were completely non-compliant, another third mostly compliant and a third strictly compliant. 

Without the financial incentive too many people would rely on other people cutting back, but not themselves, creating a free rider problem and the ultimately the system would fail in it's goals.

MikeJXE said:

Would this work do you think or have you a better idea ? 

Keep the current system, it works, it benefits the grid, the wider population (because blackouts are avoided, emissions are kept lower and bills kept down) and it benefits those who actively make the changes needed. In time we will need to move to full ToU pricing anyway, which will be used to shape demand, but for the moment the current system works well.

MikeJXE

MattMattMattUK said:

MikeJXE said:

When we had Covid the public were asked to stay home, yes I know it became law but I believe if they had been asked most would have done it anyway 

Why can't the national grid run a trial for everyone, dumb or smart so everyone can take part.

Just explain to the population why we need to switch off our high energy usage appliances between certain hours like 5pm - 6pm or whenever necessary 

Compliance with Covid measures was actually quite low. Yes people did not go to pubs or restaurants, but that was because they were shut. The inter-household mixing still continued on a fairly large scale, if lockdown had been strictly followed Covid would have been eliminated within two months at most (allowing for very small amounts of transmission in shops and other permitted public places). Around a third of people were completely non-compliant, another third mostly compliant and a third strictly compliant. 

Without the financial incentive too many people would rely on other people cutting back, but not themselves, creating a free rider problem and the ultimately the system would fail in it's goals.

MikeJXE said:

Would this work do you think or have you a better idea ? 

Keep the current system, it works, it benefits the grid, the wider population (because blackouts are avoided, emissions are kept lower and bills kept down) and it benefits those who actively make the changes needed. In time we will need to move to full ToU pricing anyway, which will be used to shape demand, but for the moment the current system works well.

If I remember correctly on another thread, not sure which you told me

every little helps 

I agree the current system maybe working and I'm not asking that to change 

Just something extra that might work better or more so

MattMattMattUK

MikeJXE said:

MattMattMattUK said:

MikeJXE said:

When we had Covid the public were asked to stay home, yes I know it became law but I believe if they had been asked most would have done it anyway 

Why can't the national grid run a trial for everyone, dumb or smart so everyone can take part.

Just explain to the population why we need to switch off our high energy usage appliances between certain hours like 5pm - 6pm or whenever necessary 

Compliance with Covid measures was actually quite low. Yes people did not go to pubs or restaurants, but that was because they were shut. The inter-household mixing still continued on a fairly large scale, if lockdown had been strictly followed Covid would have been eliminated within two months at most (allowing for very small amounts of transmission in shops and other permitted public places). Around a third of people were completely non-compliant, another third mostly compliant and a third strictly compliant. 

Without the financial incentive too many people would rely on other people cutting back, but not themselves, creating a free rider problem and the ultimately the system would fail in it's goals.

MikeJXE said:

Would this work do you think or have you a better idea ? 

Keep the current system, it works, it benefits the grid, the wider population (because blackouts are avoided, emissions are kept lower and bills kept down) and it benefits those who actively make the changes needed. In time we will need to move to full ToU pricing anyway, which will be used to shape demand, but for the moment the current system works well.

If I remember correctly on another thread, not sure which you told me

every little helps 

Good old Tesco...

It does, but the reality is that the effort expended would likely exceed the benefit gained, the return on on the incentive schemes and demand reduction makes them very worthwhile. There would also be a massaging issue, government not wanting things to appear bad (even if they are), the less astute taking it too far (see old people with ill health reducing heat too much to save energy even though the grants covered their increases) and could greate wider problems. As with all these things it is best to start with the most engaged and move down that list over time, once ToU tariffs are fully implemented demand can be properly shaped, so it is only likely an issue for the next few years at most anyway.

pseudodox

If we all turned everything practicable off at the same time then the demand from the grid would plummet.  But at the end of the session as we all switch everything back on again wouldn't that create a huge surge in demand?  It long been said that there is a surge in demand at the end of a "Coronation Street" episode or the Queen's/King's Speech on Christmas Day when everyone switches their kettle on.

With the current paid to reduce energy sessions isn't some of the saving offset by simply doing the washing earlier/later or using extra energy to boost a freezer that was turned off?  Surely we should all cut our unnecessary use all the time.  I never leave anything on standby, wash only when I have a full load, iron very few items beyond the visible when worn shirt fronts, spend just enough time in the shower to get clean, don't have a TV playing away in the background (I see this in people I visit), turn off lights when leaving a room, have my CH on low & wear a jumper around the house etc etc.   And this is how I have always managed my energy consumption as I could never afford to be profligate with it.  Which has made managing since the price hikes an easy exercise.

TheElectricCow

MikeJXE said:

When we had Covid the public were asked to stay home, yes I know it became law but I believe if they had been asked most would have done it anyway 

Perhaps people in your area behaved differently or maybe we just have different recollections of the event, but in my experience as someone who was, for a time, classed as a key worker I found overall compliance from the general public to be very poor.

A significant proportion of people, quite frankly, had zero interest in “doing their bit” at that time and would flagrantly disregard any policy, suggestion, or polite request to take even basic measures to protect others around them. If this is the basis we’re using to judge the potential effectiveness of simply asking people to shift usage then I feel it is absolutely guaranteed to fail on a nationwide scale - and no doubt groups of people would form who would intentionally use as much energy as possible during these periods out of pure spite for being asked to reduce usage.

MikeJXE said:

Why can't the national grid run a trial for everyone, dumb or smart so everyone can take part.

There’s no reason people with dumb meters can’t already take part for no reward, if they really wanted to. For someone whose only motivation is the environmental benefits, the explanations are out there and there’s several ways to get notified of the event without being signed up to a scheme, the only difference is there’s no need for them to specifically opt in.

Of course without smart meter data it’s not really possible to differentiate between an active reduction from dumb meters and just natural variations in energy demand, so measuring the success of such an initiative would be difficult.

TheBanker

Desmond_Hume said:

I get this is a well meaning thought but here is my opinion on the matter.  

It’s 2023. We’re a first world country. And for some reason, we feel like we have to come up with ideas to cut energy use because our grid - allegedly - can’t cope? I mean, how nuts is that? I get not wasting energy, I really do. But not using my washing machine at a certain time of day?

The real issue here is sub-standard politicians and those involved in grid policy. That’s the problem that needs fixed.

I agree that we have sub-standard politicians. The way the UK has dealt with energy security over the last decade plus put is in a precarious position last winter.

However, we cannot continue to burn fossil fuels, and will increasingly rely on solar and wind to generate electricity in the future. These are, naturally, variable. Energy usage is greater during winter evenings, when the sun's not shining. The wind doesn't blow on demand. Nuclear, inter-connectors with our neighbours, and storage including batteries will all help to manage demand, but so will load shifting. 

Why would you object to being asked to schedule your washing machine to run during the day-time rather than the evening to help balance the load? There are some tasks that can't easily be shifted, like cooking dinner, but some like laundry can.

I think in the future, we'll have 'smart' appliances, a bit like we already have smart EV charging. You'll load up the washing machine, tell it you want the washing to be done by whatever time, and it will interact with your electricity supplier to decide the optimal time to start the cycle. The same with your dishwasher - if you load it after dinner, does it really matter if it starts running at 8pm or 11pm? 

You are right, we are a first world country and as such we have an extra responsibility to reduce pollution, which means maximising our use of renewable energy. And we have the ability through investment in technology to do this. 

The alternative? I guess we could invest in even more storage, but the cost would be added to our electricity bills. We could keep coal and gas power stations on standby to cover peak demand, but that causes pollution and incurs high costs which are added to our bills. Or we can all make relatively small changes to the way we use electricity.

Nobody is saying you should sit in the cold and dark for a couple of hours, they are just asking you to consider doing certain tasks at different times. 

Also worth pointing out that this isn't a new thing. Industrial users have had their own version of Demand Flexibility for decades. All that's new is that smart meter technology means this can be extended to domestic users. 

MultiFuelBurner

Mike, there are several demand flexibility scheme threads on this board just follow them and they all get someone posting that an event is happening and when. They join in 👍

I agree that the National Grid ESO could ask those without smart meters to join in to do their bit if they want.

However from another post I don't believe this is what you really want it's just a smart meter wind up thread 

I don't particularly want a discussion on the benefits of a smart meter I already roughly know them.

I'm not against them but would't choose to have one as they would make little difference to me.

As for saving the planet my contribution would be minuscule as would our countries compared to China, India, Russia and the USA. 

Make a start by convincing them and then I will gladly join the band wagon 

Keep_pedalling

MikeJXE said:

There are many smart people on the energy board who come up with ways of saving money by, ways to cut down, installing solar panels, heat pumps etc but 

The vast majority of energy users are on dumb meters, most can't afford solar panels or in flats where they can't have them 

Not true, 57% had been converted by March this year.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmpubacc/1332/report.html#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%20March,85%2C000%20smart%20meters%20each%20week.

Although some locations can’t get SMs to communicate to  the system there is nothing stopping most of those still on old meters getting SM to take advantage of these schemes and smart tariffs. 

EssexHebridean

MikeJXE said:

Snip
The vast majority of energy users are on dumb meters, most can't afford solar panels or in flats where they can't have them 
snip

This bit isn’t correct I’m afraid - the majority of U.K. households now have smart meters fitted. As at the end of 2022 the figure was 55% I believe - it will of course have increased since then.

I completely agree that asking folk not to use energy, or to cut back on what they use at certain times is a good plan, however, unfortunately there will be a good number who will object on the basis of not liking being told what to do, who will either simply ignore the request, or who will actively go out of their way to use an increased amount. There will be many other who will refuse unless they are incentivised to do it - this is where the DFS and things like savings sessions come in.