WASPE "On Brink Of Defeat"

Pollycat

Marcon said:

Pollycat said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

Pollycat said:But were we actually notified?

Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

Yes I was 35 and my employer attached a leaflet to every single payslip, men and women, and I also watched most of my work colleagues throw it in the bin without reading it as it was about pensions and they didn't think it was anything to do with them.  Having said that it was all over the media anyway, you'd have to be living in a cave to miss it.

I don't think that can be classed as receiving a letter.
The media at that time consisted of TV and actual newspapers.
No social media then like there is now.
Don't get me wrong...
I knew about it, agreed with the principle.
But there wasn't any personal notification.

Why would there be? Did you get a personal letter as a child (or parent) when the school leaving age changed?

I didn't expect a letter.
Why do you think I expected a letter?
Either about the change in school leaving age or the change in female state pension age.
The whole premise of WASPI's campaign is that they were not advised personally.
I didn't need a letter to be advised of women's pension age changes.
But apparently WASPI woman did.
My comments were aimed at someone who said they received a personal letter about the 1995 changes.
I disagree with that.

To be clear: 
There was no personal notification about the 1995 Act changes.
This has been acknowledged by the government and DWP (or whatever it was called at that time).

p00hsticks

Pollycat said:

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I never got a letter telling me my pension age was increasing - but by the same token, I never got one at the start of my working life to tell me it was going to be 60, either.

And I've never personally had ones to tell me when the income tax rate or NI was going up or down. or that it was now illegal for me not to wear a seatbelt in a car, or  any of the other myriad changes that are legislated in parliament every year that have affected me personally.

In my view it's not an argument that really stands up to much scrutiny and if we don't take some responsibility or interest in what changes our government then that's our choice to make and we should live with the consequences.

Admittedly it's much easier now we have the internet to find out about things that may affect us, but in 1995 the proposed changes were featured widely in newspapers and TV news (which far more people will have read and watched than they do now).    

Pollycat

p00hsticks said:

Pollycat said:

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I never got a letter telling me my pension age was increasing - but by the same token, I never got one at the start of my working life to tell me it was going to be 60, either.

And I've never personally had ones to tell me when the income tax rate or NI was going up or down. or that it was now illegal for me not to wear a seatbelt in a car, or  any of the other myriad changes that are legislated in parliament every year that have affected me personally.

In my view it's not an argument that really stands up to much scrutiny and if we don't take some responsibility or interest in what changes our government then that's our choice to make and we should live with the consequences.

Admittedly it's much easier now we have the internet to find out about things that may affect us, but in 1995 the proposed changes were featured widely in newspapers and TV news (which far more people will have read and watched than they do now).    

I think you and the poster above (Marcon) have misunderstood my point.
At no point did I personally expect to receive a letter.
Not about the change in state pension age.
Not about the change in school leaving age.
Not about the change in NI.
Not about the change in income tax.
Or about any other change.

I simply disagreed with a statement by another poster that they were personally advised about the 1995 change.
A leaflet attached to your pay slip does not constitute personal advisement. 

I was fully aware about the increase in women's state pension age.
From the media - such as it was at the time.
From information provided by my employer.
From discussions with friends.

I agree that is not an argument that stands up to scrutiny..
But WASPI appear to believe it does stand up.
I do not agree with WASPI'S belief.

FTR:
Earlier in in this thread, I have stated that I believe that a man and woman born on the same day should receive their state pension on the same date.
That is my understanding of equality.

Any other posters: 
Please don't assume erroneously that I expected to be personally advised by the government of the time about the state pension age change.

Marcon

Pollycat said:

Marcon said:

Pollycat said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

Pollycat said:But were we actually notified?

Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

Yes I was 35 and my employer attached a leaflet to every single payslip, men and women, and I also watched most of my work colleagues throw it in the bin without reading it as it was about pensions and they didn't think it was anything to do with them.  Having said that it was all over the media anyway, you'd have to be living in a cave to miss it.

I don't think that can be classed as receiving a letter.
The media at that time consisted of TV and actual newspapers.
No social media then like there is now.
Don't get me wrong...
I knew about it, agreed with the principle.
But there wasn't any personal notification.

Why would there be? Did you get a personal letter as a child (or parent) when the school leaving age changed?

I didn't expect a letter.
Why do you think I expected a letter?

Pollycat said:

But it doesn't change the fact that women were not advised personally by letter about the 1995 change.
A leaflet attached to a pay slip cannot be classed as a letter delivered personally to every woman affected.

Your own posts - eg the one above.

Pollycat

Marcon said:

Pollycat said:

Marcon said:

Pollycat said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

Pollycat said:But were we actually notified?

Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

Yes I was 35 and my employer attached a leaflet to every single payslip, men and women, and I also watched most of my work colleagues throw it in the bin without reading it as it was about pensions and they didn't think it was anything to do with them.  Having said that it was all over the media anyway, you'd have to be living in a cave to miss it.

I don't think that can be classed as receiving a letter.
The media at that time consisted of TV and actual newspapers.
No social media then like there is now.
Don't get me wrong...
I knew about it, agreed with the principle.
But there wasn't any personal notification.

Why would there be? Did you get a personal letter as a child (or parent) when the school leaving age changed?

I didn't expect a letter.
Why do you think I expected a letter?

Pollycat said:

But it doesn't change the fact that women were not advised personally by letter about the 1995 change.
A leaflet attached to a pay slip cannot be classed as a letter delivered personally to every woman affected.

Your own posts - eg the one above.

Where did it say I personally EXPECTED a letter?
It doesn't.
It says "women were not advised personally by letter about the 1995 change".

Clear?

p00hsticks

Pollycat said:

p00hsticks said:

Pollycat said:

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I never got a letter telling me my pension age was increasing - but by the same token, I never got one at the start of my working life to tell me it was going to be 60, either.

And I've never personally had ones to tell me when the income tax rate or NI was going up or down. or that it was now illegal for me not to wear a seatbelt in a car, or  any of the other myriad changes that are legislated in parliament every year that have affected me personally.

In my view it's not an argument that really stands up to much scrutiny and if we don't take some responsibility or interest in what changes our government then that's our choice to make and we should live with the consequences.

Admittedly it's much easier now we have the internet to find out about things that may affect us, but in 1995 the proposed changes were featured widely in newspapers and TV news (which far more people will have read and watched than they do now).    

I think you and the poster above (Marcon) have misunderstood my point.

@Pollycat, I think you are taking my reply too personally; my comments were on the whole general and not specifically aimed at you.

You asked if I had received a personally letter telling me about the rise in age, and I answered that, like you, I hadn't.

 Like you, I'm well aware that this is the argument that WASPE have been using and I went on say why, in my opinion, their argument doesn't carry much weight.

Pollycat

p00hsticks said:

Pollycat said:

p00hsticks said:

Pollycat said:

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I never got a letter telling me my pension age was increasing - but by the same token, I never got one at the start of my working life to tell me it was going to be 60, either.

And I've never personally had ones to tell me when the income tax rate or NI was going up or down. or that it was now illegal for me not to wear a seatbelt in a car, or  any of the other myriad changes that are legislated in parliament every year that have affected me personally.

In my view it's not an argument that really stands up to much scrutiny and if we don't take some responsibility or interest in what changes our government then that's our choice to make and we should live with the consequences.

Admittedly it's much easier now we have the internet to find out about things that may affect us, but in 1995 the proposed changes were featured widely in newspapers and TV news (which far more people will have read and watched than they do now).    

I think you and the poster above (Marcon) have misunderstood my point.

@Pollycat, I think you are taking my reply too personally; my comments were on the whole general and not specifically aimed at you.

You asked if I had received a personally letter telling me about the rise in age, and I answered that, like you, I hadn't.

 Like you, I'm well aware that this is the argument that WASPE have been using and I went on say why, in my opinion, their argument doesn't carry much weight.

I actually asked Grubbygirl_2 if she had received a letter regarding the change.
That was because she stated specifically:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

Well we were notified in 1995 that the age would start increasing from 2010.  

And I'm pretty sure that individuals affected were not notified by letter.
A leaflet attached to a payslip is not a letter sent to an individual's home address.

I didn't ask you if you had received a letter.

The part you added about not receiving letters about:

  I never got one at the start of my working life to tell me it was going to be 60, either.

And I've never personally had ones to tell me when the income tax rate or NI was going up or down. or that it was now illegal for me not to wear a seatbelt in a car, or  any of the other myriad changes that are legislated in parliament every year that have affected me personally.

were irrelevant and to me - unnecessarily sarcastic.

FTR:
I do not support what WASPI are asking for.
I did not expect to receive a letter after the 1995 Pension Act changes.
I did receive a letter - addressed to me personally at my home address - about the 2010(?) changes.

jem16

Pollycat said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

As someone who falls into the WASPI age group this campaign frustrates the hell out of me simply because it doesn't make sense.  They state that they had no notice of the changes and therefore could not make arrangements for their financial security.  Well we were notified in 1995 that the age would start increasing from 2010.  By my calculation that's 15 years, maybe some of these women should educate themselves and start reading or at least watch the news.  Also what financial insecurity is there?  You just carry on working that gives you the money to spend.  If you still finish work at 60 knowing you're not going to get a pension then more fool you!!

These women no doubt want equality with men in all things except this because on this one they lose out.  Even though I would get a load of money if they win I really hope they don't as there are much better things the Government should be spending their money on, certainly not this.

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I certainly knew about it as it was widely discussed and in the company I worked for, HR ran sessions to educate women about this change.

Waspi has relied on notification by personal letter which of course there is no legal obligation for. 

Notification basically takes many forms and is why the PHSO found no maladministration from 1995 to 2004 as the information to notify yourself was always there. We had a Budget speech in 1993 followed by numerous reporting of it via TV, Radio and newspapers (all of them and not just the Financial Times as some want you to believe). Over the years we’ve had notification via employers, forecasts, newspapers and mostly word of mouth. The passing of the Acts themselves is notification. 

The PHSO ended up finding a very small window of maladministration, not because there was no notification but because there was a delay in sending out personal letters once the DWP had made a decision to do so. This went against the upgraded Civil Service Code of Conduct which expected the DWP to act on information in a timely manner. 

Most of us 50s’ born women knew all about the changes from way back in the 90s. It was well talked about. It was on,y with the advent of the Waspi campaign that suddenly women were talking about not being notified by personal letter. Waspi moderators were busy telling people on their Facebook site not to say they knew but to say they had not received a letter. Waspi convinced women that this would mean maladministration and a return of their up to 6 years pension. Even Bindman’s (their solicitors) produced a template which told them to claim what they would have got from 60 to new state pension age as their financial loss. 

Of course that was never going to be the case as they’ve been finding out. Many of us tried to tell them that over the last 7 years but we have been described as detractors, trolls, Government spies etc, etc. Then of course came the blocking and banning of anyone who tried to correct misinformation and lies. It got worse after the first PHSO report was published and it still happens today. 

Basically they have run a bad campaign and listened to nobody who tried to help. 

Andy_L

Pollycat said:

GrubbyGirl_2 said:

As someone who falls into the WASPI age group this campaign frustrates the hell out of me simply because it doesn't make sense.  They state that they had no notice of the changes and therefore could not make arrangements for their financial security.  Well we were notified in 1995 that the age would start increasing from 2010.  By my calculation that's 15 years, maybe some of these women should educate themselves and start reading or at least watch the news.  Also what financial insecurity is there?  You just carry on working that gives you the money to spend.  If you still finish work at 60 knowing you're not going to get a pension then more fool you!!

These women no doubt want equality with men in all things except this because on this one they lose out.  Even though I would get a load of money if they win I really hope they don't as there are much better things the Government should be spending their money on, certainly not this.

But were we actually notified?
Did you receive a letter telling you that?
I think that is WASPI's point.

I certainly knew about it as it was widely discussed and in the company I worked for, HR ran sessions to educate women about this change.

I think WASPI's campaign was poorly thought out (as per Silvertabby said:

The WASPE hierarcy believe that it would be fair and equitable for women born before 6 April 1960 to receive their pensions backdated to age 60, but that their friends/sisters born on or after 6 April 1960 (just one day later) can jolly well wait until age 66.  

I fall into the WASPI category but have not supported this organisation.
I firmly believe that a man and woman born on the same day should receive their state pension on the same day.
That is how I understand equality.

If WASPI had concentrated on the later change (which was notified by letter) that - at incredibly short notice - increased pension age to 66, I would have supported it.
I had known since 1995 that my state pension date would be April 2017 (aged 63 years and 6 months).
The second change put that back to July 2018 (aged 64 years and 9 months).

Now that was inadequate notice.

In one of the court cases one of the WASPIs submitted the very letter informing her of the change, somewhat undermining their own case

toomuchinfo

I’m a WASPI woman and I support the equalising of pension ages. The difficulty is that it wasn’t communicated adequately. In 1995, I had a full time job, a disabled son and a uncle who I provided care for too, so excuse me if I missed News at 10, or didn’t read the correct page of the newspapers, or that my circle of friends/colleagues didn’t discuss this topic, we were busy making ends meet.

I don’t want or expect any pension back pay but I can’t vilify those women who didn’t know about the changes, as has been said before, there wasn’t social media, and home computer weren’t as widespread at the time.

From what I’ve heard the WASPI findings will support a payment but then Parliament will block it because it will be too expensive.