Autumn statement - ISA rule changes from April 2024

eskbanker

surreysaver said:

I obviously came out of that thread being certain I could. I always like to adhere to the rules, which is why I started that thread in the first place.

But by your own admission, you're not adhering to the rules as explained in both that thread and this one!

surreysaver said:

Obviously the rules and their explanations are not clear, and are set to get worse come April!

Even if you feel that the rules themselves aren't clear, it's not obvious why you ignore the repeated explanations of them on this thread?

And I still don't see how the removal of a rule in April makes things less understandable!

masonic

The annual allowance is one of the most well understood aspects of ISAs. People may get confused about the number of ISAs they can "open", or whether you can pay into both a cash LISA and cash ISA, or if after closing a particular type of ISA you are free to open another in the same tax year. People start threads about all sorts of issues they have run into from forgetting to cancel a regular payment, to forgetting what they had previously paid in. What I don't think I've ever seen is someone posting that they didn't know there was a limit to how much could be paid into ISAs through a tax year, or indeed what that limit is.

But it would be uncharitable of me to think that such confusion was only being confected now in order to argue diminished responsibility for actions taken or to be taken...

surreysaver

eskbanker said:

surreysaver said:

I obviously came out of that thread being certain I could. I always like to adhere to the rules, which is why I started that thread in the first place.

But by your own admission, you're not adhering to the rules as explained in both that thread and this one!

surreysaver said:

Obviously the rules and their explanations are not clear, and are set to get worse come April!

Even if you feel that the rules themselves aren't clear, it's not obvious why you ignore the repeated explanations of them on this thread?

And I still don't see how the removal of a rule in April makes things less understandable!

There were posters in that thread that said I couldn't put money in a flexible ISA, take it out and put it in another one. So advice on here can be wrong. So I looked at HMRC's website. Nothing there that prevents me from what I'm doing.
And the removal of a rule will make things less understandable, as you can put money in multiple ISAs of the same type.
That is bound to cause lots of people to fall foul of rules which are not explicitly clear. Assuming providers' systems can accurately track what people are doing in real time 

surreysaver

masonic said:

The annual allowance is one of the most well understood aspects of ISAs. People may get confused about the number of ISAs they can "open", or whether you can pay into both a cash LISA and cash ISA, or if after closing a particular type of ISA you are free to open another in the same tax year. People start threads about all sorts of issues they have run into from forgetting to cancel a regular payment, to forgetting what they had previously paid in. What I don't think I've ever seen is someone posting that they didn't know there was a limit to how much could be paid into ISAs through a tax year, or indeed what that limit is.

But it would be uncharitable of me to think that such confusion was only being confected now in order to argue diminished responsibility for actions taken or to be taken...

A flexible ISA, however, introduces such confusion. You can take money out and put it back in. Into a different ISA. How does that not confuse the annual allowance?
I am not claiming I do not know how much I can pay in. It is £20k. Over a year. You take money out, that's a minus number. Its basic maths. A flexible ISA introduced the concept you can put money back in once you've taken it out 

eskbanker

surreysaver said:

There were posters in that thread that said I couldn't put money in a flexible ISA, take it out and put it in another one. So advice on here can be wrong.

Nobody said that!  Who are you accusing?

surreysaver said:
So I looked at HMRC's website. Nothing there that prevents me from what I'm doing.

That aspect has already been covered by the earlier posts highlighting the significance of the declarations, etc.  What have you seen on the official site that supports your view that what you're doing is allowed?

surreysaver said:

And the removal of a rule will make things less understandable, as you can put money in multiple ISAs of the same type.

How is being able to fund multiple ISAs of the same type less understandable?

surreysaver said:

That is bound to cause lots of people to fall foul of rules which are not explicitly clear. Assuming providers' systems can accurately track what people are doing in real time 

There is currently no ability for providers' systems to collectively track what people are doing in real time, i.e. no ability to spot ISA holders breaching the aggregate £20K contribution limit when funding multiple ISAs, so the current situation will continue, under which ISA holders are themselves responsible for ensuring that they don't breach that limit, rather than expecting someone else to do it for them.  Hence the importance and significance of the declaration:

I declare that I have not subscribed/made a payment to and will not subscribe/make a payment more than the overall subscription limit in total to any combination of permitted ISA types in the same tax year

masonic

surreysaver said:

eskbanker said:

surreysaver said:

I obviously came out of that thread being certain I could. I always like to adhere to the rules, which is why I started that thread in the first place.

But by your own admission, you're not adhering to the rules as explained in both that thread and this one!

surreysaver said:

Obviously the rules and their explanations are not clear, and are set to get worse come April!

Even if you feel that the rules themselves aren't clear, it's not obvious why you ignore the repeated explanations of them on this thread?

And I still don't see how the removal of a rule in April makes things less understandable!

There were posters in that thread that said I couldn't put money in a flexible ISA, take it out and put it in another one. So advice on here can be wrong. So I looked at HMRC's website. Nothing there that prevents me from what I'm doing.

No, we were saying that you cannot lawfully exceed the allowance, then flexibly withdraw at the end of the tax year to hide it from HMRC. That was based on the initial position you described, but went on to clarify. Bad inputs will often lead to bad outputs.

surreysaver said:

And the removal of a rule will make things less understandable, as you can put money in multiple ISAs of the same type.

That is bound to cause lots of people to fall foul of rules which are not explicitly clear. Assuming providers' systems can accurately track what people are doing in real time 

This actually makes it simpler, as people no longer need to worry about replacing into a different ISA of the same type. So you will be able to flexibly withdraw valid current year subscriptions from any ISA and replace in any other ISA you hold before the end of the tax year.

masonic

surreysaver said:

masonic said:

The annual allowance is one of the most well understood aspects of ISAs. People may get confused about the number of ISAs they can "open", or whether you can pay into both a cash LISA and cash ISA, or if after closing a particular type of ISA you are free to open another in the same tax year. People start threads about all sorts of issues they have run into from forgetting to cancel a regular payment, to forgetting what they had previously paid in. What I don't think I've ever seen is someone posting that they didn't know there was a limit to how much could be paid into ISAs through a tax year, or indeed what that limit is.

But it would be uncharitable of me to think that such confusion was only being confected now in order to argue diminished responsibility for actions taken or to be taken...

A flexible ISA, however, introduces such confusion. You can take money out and put it back in. Into a different ISA. How does that not confuse the annual allowance?
I am not claiming I do not know how much I can pay in. It is £20k. Over a year. You take money out, that's a minus number. Its basic maths. A flexible ISA introduced the concept you can put money back in once you've taken it out 

 ...all the while remaining within the annual limit. There has never been any confusion in that.

surreysaver

masonic said:

surreysaver said:

eskbanker said:

surreysaver said:

I obviously came out of that thread being certain I could. I always like to adhere to the rules, which is why I started that thread in the first place.

But by your own admission, you're not adhering to the rules as explained in both that thread and this one!

surreysaver said:

Obviously the rules and their explanations are not clear, and are set to get worse come April!

Even if you feel that the rules themselves aren't clear, it's not obvious why you ignore the repeated explanations of them on this thread?

And I still don't see how the removal of a rule in April makes things less understandable!

There were posters in that thread that said I couldn't put money in a flexible ISA, take it out and put it in another one. So advice on here can be wrong. So I looked at HMRC's website. Nothing there that prevents me from what I'm doing.

No, we were saying that you cannot lawfully exceed the allowance, then flexibly withdraw at the end of the tax year to hide it from HMRC. That was based on the initial position you described, but went on to clarify. Bad inputs will often lead to bad outputs.

surreysaver said:

And the removal of a rule will make things less understandable, as you can put money in multiple ISAs of the same type.

That is bound to cause lots of people to fall foul of rules which are not explicitly clear. Assuming providers' systems can accurately track what people are doing in real time 

This actually makes it simpler, as people no longer need to worry about replacing into a different ISA of the same type. So you will be able to flexibly withdraw valid current year subscriptions from any ISA and replace in any other ISA you hold before the end of the tax year.

It would be handy if someone could actually link to official documentation that describes what is being explained 

And I don't appreciate trying to be accused of trying to hide anything, as that's not what I'm trying to do. I am trying to adhere to the rules

masonic

surreysaver said:

masonic said:

surreysaver said:

eskbanker said:

surreysaver said:

I obviously came out of that thread being certain I could. I always like to adhere to the rules, which is why I started that thread in the first place.

But by your own admission, you're not adhering to the rules as explained in both that thread and this one!

surreysaver said:

Obviously the rules and their explanations are not clear, and are set to get worse come April!

Even if you feel that the rules themselves aren't clear, it's not obvious why you ignore the repeated explanations of them on this thread?

And I still don't see how the removal of a rule in April makes things less understandable!

There were posters in that thread that said I couldn't put money in a flexible ISA, take it out and put it in another one. So advice on here can be wrong. So I looked at HMRC's website. Nothing there that prevents me from what I'm doing.

No, we were saying that you cannot lawfully exceed the allowance, then flexibly withdraw at the end of the tax year to hide it from HMRC. That was based on the initial position you described, but went on to clarify. Bad inputs will often lead to bad outputs.

surreysaver said:

And the removal of a rule will make things less understandable, as you can put money in multiple ISAs of the same type.

That is bound to cause lots of people to fall foul of rules which are not explicitly clear. Assuming providers' systems can accurately track what people are doing in real time 

This actually makes it simpler, as people no longer need to worry about replacing into a different ISA of the same type. So you will be able to flexibly withdraw valid current year subscriptions from any ISA and replace in any other ISA you hold before the end of the tax year.

It would be handy if someone could actually link to official documentation that describes what is being explained 

I did, at least a couple of times. Others have also referred you to it.

If you're determined enough to maintain it, there's nothing I can do to strip away your confusion.

I respected you as a forum contributor, which is why I was willing to go over the same ground several times in good faith. However, there comes a time when you have to draw a line. That time has come, so I'm out.

gele

Ok, I have read this thread but feel I'm getting more confused than when I started  So for clarity for the more intellectually challenged [like me] I will post a scenario.
I have 2 cash ISAs, one that will mature in Aug 24 and one in Nov 24  but I may want to open one in April.24  I know I can do this.
With these new rules can I open one in April and pay say £4k in and then in Aug open another to transfer the maturing one with £12k in into [total £16k in 2 Isas both opened in same tax year] Then say in Oct  should I want to, open a 3rd and pay in another £4k  [total £20k of new monies this year in 3 cash ISAs ] and then transfer the maturing Nov one into a 4th [old money]
I think I will be able to do this, and it might not be the route I take, but just wanted someone to say 'yes' or 'no'
Thanks