Property disregard rules for care home fees if a family member lives in the property….

MURS1

Can anyone help with the following, please.
Our mum has just gone into a care home due to having dementia, and we have applied for deputyship of her financial affairs and H&W as there’s no LPA in place.
As she owns her own home the 12wks property disregard currently applies but after this she will be seen as self funding and we will likely need to sell her home to pay for the care home fees.

1. A family member currently lives in the house and he has done all their life. They are 58yrs old. Is there any case for the house to be disregarded ongoing towards future care home fees once the 12wks has ended? I know technically it’s only if the family member is under 18 or over 60, but I was wondering if there were any exceptions.

2. Is there any benefit to not selling the house if we could find a way to cover the fees for the next 2 years? If the family member remains living there until they turn 60 would this mean our mum self funds for just 2 years and then stops being self funded as she has no other assets over the £23,250. If the family member sold the house later would it then be taken into account.

3. Is there likely to be a cap on the fees you pay towards care home costs by October 2025 and if so does this take into account what has been paid prior to any cap coming into place? 

Thank you

Brie

1. The council could force the sale of the house to get the money back as the individual living there is under 60.  They may however prefer to simply put a lien on the house so they get their money back when that individual eventually moves out.  Presumably they will inherit the house?  If so then they could continue to live there and the council wouldn't get anything until possibly they die and the house is then sold.  If not then mom's beneficiaries will need to decide whether the house should be sold immediately on her death or not.

2. The individual living there turning 60 won't change anything.  The council will still charge the fees against the value of the house every month even if mom lives for another 40 years.  Fees don't stop when the individual turns 60 just that the council won't at that point make someone homeless. (like they could do now)

3. As I understand it the cap on fees will only affect those who go into care AFTER that date.  Those already in care won't be eligible for the cap.  Happy to be corrected on that.

fyi - I've based this on what we were told by our council re MiL so some councils may differ but I doubt by much.  3 months after buying a house for us and MiL to live in she went into a care home, there was no 12 week disregard mentioned.  And we were told we should arrange to sell the house immediately to fund her care.  It was only when I told them that I was already 60 that they said it would be a lien on the house instead of us being made homeless.

MURS1

Thank you for the quick response Brie. Kind regards.

Brie

Should have added that I hope you are coping ok with it all.  It's a difficult time for all concerned generally.  But we knew that a care home was the best option for MiL and she received excellent care that we would have been unable to provide.  Much better than being in a hospital!

elsien

The care cap is not happening. The government has kicked the can down the line and there is currently no date for its implementation - if it happens at all as it's not on the agenda for the lifetime of this parliament. 
And even if it were coming in, it would not cover the "hotel" costs - food, utilities etc which the person would be paying anyway. 

With regards to the person living there there could be a discretionary disregard if the person (for example) has given up their own home to care for a relative or if they were a long term carer for them. This is likely to take some arguing given how cash-strapped councils are at the moment so I would suggest proper legal advice with regards to this if the person has been a carer - the purpose of the discretionary disregard is in part to prevent someone vulnerable from being made homeless so is very much based on individual circumstances.

You might also want to get legal advice about what may happen when they do turn 60 if there is no discretionary disregard agreed but you find a way to cover costs before then. 

MURS1

Brie said:

Should have added that I hope you are coping ok with it all.  It's a difficult time for all concerned generally.  But we knew that a care home was the best option for MiL and she received excellent care that we would have been unable to provide.  Much better than being in a hospital!

We are getting there, thank you. Mum has now been in a care home for 2 weeks after being in hospital for 16wks during which time she had a fall and broke her hip. She’s definitely in a better place now. Thank you again, very kind.

Spendless

Brie said:

1. The council could force the sale of the house to get the money back as the individual living there is under 60.  They may however prefer to simply put a lien on the house so they get their money back when that individual eventually moves out.  Presumably they will inherit the house?  If so then they could continue to live there and the council wouldn't get anything until possibly they die and the house is then sold.  If not then mom's beneficiaries will need to decide whether the house should be sold immediately on her death or not.

2. The individual living there turning 60 won't change anything.  The council will still charge the fees against the value of the house every month even if mom lives for another 40 years.  Fees don't stop when the individual turns 60 just that the council won't at that point make someone homeless. (like they could do now)

3. As I understand it the cap on fees will only affect those who go into care AFTER that date.  Those already in care won't be eligible for the cap.  Happy to be corrected on that.

fyi - I've based this on what we were told by our council re MiL so some councils may differ but I doubt by much.  3 months after buying a house for us and MiL to live in she went into a care home, there was no 12 week disregard mentioned.  And we were told we should arrange to sell the house immediately to fund her care.  It was only when I told them that I was already 60 that they said it would be a lien on the house instead of us being made homeless.

@Brie - Why was this or am I just reading this incorrectly/the info is incorrect?  From

  https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/do-i-have-to-sell-my-home-to-pay-for-care/

Will my home have to be included in the means test?

In some situations, your home won't be taken into account in the means test. There are a few circumstances where this applies:

If you need short-term or temporary care in a care home, your home won't be in the means test.

If your care home is permanent, it won't be counted if it's still occupied by:

• your partner or former partner, unless they are estranged from you
• your estranged or divorced partner IF they are also a lone parent
• a relative who is aged 60 or over
• a relative who is disabled
• a child of yours aged under 18

If your property is going to be included in the permanent care home means test, the council must ignore it for the first 12 weeks of your care. This is to give you space to decide what to do with your property and paying fees, for example whether to enter into a deferred payment agreement with the council. You will likely qualify for help with fees from the council for the 12 week period if your other capital assets are under £23,250.

I agree this doesn't apply in the OP's case though. Some council's are better clued up than others are giving info. My Nan had the 12 week disregard applied but the council had told my parents (themselves pensioners) that they were liable for 3rd party top ups. I was told my a member on here that they weren't as Nan had a property to be sold so was therefore self -funding but as you describe parents themselves were in too much of an emotional state to take everything in and believed it. 

elsien

FWIW, no-one is liable for a third party top up. It is voluntary if family are willing and able to pay extra, but family cannot be made to pay if they are not willing or able. In those circumstances, the person may need to move to a cheaper care home if there is one available to meet their needs. 

Just adding that for the benefit of anyone else who  may come across this thread.

With regard to the question about Brie, it may well have depended who paid for what and also the very short timescale in between Brie moving in and mother-in-law having to go into care. That would not be a typical situation so can’t really be generalised from.

polar_pig

MURS1, has your mum had a Continuing Health Care (CHC) assessment? If she qualifies your mum's care home fees would be paid by the NHS. It's surprising how many people are unaware of this. It's a points scoring system based upon the individual's health needs (vs what are deemed to be social needs). The bar is set pretty high to qualify (only a small percentage get it) and dementia in it's own right will not qualify, but some of the symptoms are likely to give you some points to add in, if there are enough other health needs it can get you over the line.

I wouldn't want to get anybody's hopes up too much, especially not knowing about the circumstances, but if she does qualify you won't need to consider selling the house to pay the fees. Two good links to help you or anyone else investigate CHC:

https://beaconchc.co.uk/essential-guide-getting-assessed-nhs-continuing-healthcare-funding/#:~:text=a Beacon advisor.-,Request a Checklist assessment,themselves or a loved one.

https://caretobedifferent.co.uk/

They helped me to get the CHC funding for my mum and dad that they deserved.

elsien

Also if she's going to be self-funding she would be eligible for attendance allowance - for future reference depending on which way the house disregard decision goes. 

Brie

Spendless said:

Brie said:

And we were told we should arrange to sell the house immediately to fund her care.  It was only when I told them that I was already 60 that they said it would be a lien on the house instead of us being made homeless.

@Brie - Why was this or am I just reading this incorrectly/the info is incorrect?  From

  https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/do-i-have-to-sell-my-home-to-pay-for-care/

Will my home have to be included in the means test?

In some situations, your home won't be taken into account in the means test. There are a few circumstances where this applies:

If you need short-term or temporary care in a care home, your home won't be in the means test.

If your care home is permanent, it won't be counted if it's still occupied by:

• your partner or former partner, unless they are estranged from you
• your estranged or divorced partner IF they are also a lone parent
• a relative who is aged 60 or over
• a relative who is disabled
• a child of yours aged under 18

If your property is going to be included in the permanent care home means test, the council must ignore it for the first 12 weeks of your care. This is to give you space to decide what to do with your property and paying fees, for example whether to enter into a deferred payment agreement with the council. You will likely qualify for help with fees from the council for the 12 week period if your other capital assets are under £23,250.

I agree this doesn't apply in the OP's case though. Some council's are better clued up than others are giving info. My Nan had the 12 week disregard applied but the council had told my parents (themselves pensioners) that they were liable for 3rd party top ups. I was told my a member on here that they weren't as Nan had a property to be sold so was therefore self -funding but as you describe parents themselves were in too much of an emotional state to take everything in and believed it. 

Admittedly the council made a LOT of mistakes on dealing with MiL's finances but they did make it clear that as she had paid towards the purchase of the house then the council had the right to that money to pay for her care.  She had enough savings to pay for over a year in care (they didn't know that) so selling the house wouldn't have needed to be done too quickly but it was their insistence that they would force a sale "immediately" should cash be needed.  Interesting that's in complete contradiction to what ageuk state.