Lebara T&Cs, roaming

TMSG

We have a couple Lebara SIMs in the family and I was asked about the roaming conditions. So I went to the Lebara website (https://www.lebara.co.uk/en/terms-and-conditions.html ) and checked all files linked there. There are a few paragraphs/conditions dealing with roaming which I read but nothing about any restrictions re length of usage. However, I distinctly remember having read something about a 120 day limit or some such clause.

Turns out that this does exist but it's not all in any of the T&C documents. Instead it's on another page: https://www.lebara.co.uk/en/rates.html Quote:
----

Roaming in Europe

Whether you need to travel for work or leisure, we understand the importance of staying connected. That’s why we let you use your Lebara SIM in Europe just like how you would use it whilst you are in the UK. This means that you can use the data and minutes included in your allowance in the EU at no extra cost. If you exhaust your full allowance while in the EU, you can buy a new plan or add a bolt on to continue being able to use services. If you add PAYG credit, standard PAYG charges will apply.
 

If you have an unlimited data plan, you can use up to 30GB data whilst roaming in the EU. If you need more than 30GB while in the EU, you can buy a new plan or add a bolt on to continue using data services.If you have run out of your data allowance while in the EU, you can get a 5GB Roaming Bolt On for £10. To activate the bolt-on, text 5GB to 38885 from your Lebara SIM.
 

Important Tip:

Before you travel abroad, please make sure that you have the right data settings on your phone. To check/set correct settings, click here
 

Important bits to know

• Following countries are included in the roam like home proposition
  • EU member states (Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, UK)
  • EEA Countries (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Gibraltar, Reunion, Mayotte, Guadeloupe, French Guiana and Martinique
• This scheme is designed for customers who primarily live in the UK and ideal for short trips to other places in the EU. To safeguard against abuse, If your roaming usage is greater than usage in the UK over any continuous 120 day period, you will be subject to a surcharge of 0.20p/MB (equivalent to £2/GB) for data, 0.04p/sec (equivalent to 2.4p/min) for outgoing calls, 0.01p/sec (equivalent to 0.6p/min) for incoming calls and 0.8p for sending an SMS.
• Surcharge is deducted from your Pay As You Go allowance. You will need to top up if you don’t have any.
•  If you joined Lebara on or after 24th May 2023 you will no longer be able to use PAYG data. If you wish to use data, you will need to opt into a plan or bundle. Browse our plans here

----
So the 120 days is not a hard limit as I'd somehow misremembered but seems to be a sort of rolling window where the roaming usage should not be higher than the UK usage and if it is then they will start to charge above rates.

Now this triggers three questions. First, when does the surcharge kick in? After any 120 day period where roaming usage was higher than UK usage? Or will/can they charge these rates retrospectively, possibly without even giving so much as a warning text or email?

Further, they say they take those charges from the Pay As You Go allowance. What if someone has never done a top up?

And finally, shouldn't such a clause be explicitly mentioned somewhere in their T&Cs? After all one can rack up significant charges while roaming... and even reading the T&Cs leaves one (or at least left me) none the wiser (I tend to read that stuff... sometimes ).

PHK

I think it’s quite clear. If over the last 120 days you’ve used more roaming than in the UK then you’ll start to be charged for roaming. 

If you don’t have a balance then you’ll not be able to make calls or send texts. 

TMSG

PHK said:

I think it’s quite clear. If over the last 120 days you’ve used more roaming than in the UK then you’ll start to be charged for roaming. 

If you don’t have a balance then you’ll not be able to make calls or send texts. 

Thanks for answering. So you think that passage will not be applied retrospectively. I was and am inclined to think the same but I have more than once found that my thinking (or assumptions) and companies' interpretation of their T&Cs is not always compatible. Sometimes this may well be because I'm simply too dense to understand them but at other times they are perhaps just not entirely clear. Better safe than sorry?

I'd hoped that perhaps someone has been through this before and knows how this is dealt with  but it's probably better to try to contact them directly.

And I'd really like to know whether such a rule shouldn't be part of their explicit T&Cs. Companies are very quick to point to them when it helps them but OTOH they have an obligation (IMO) to provide a precise and complete set of T&Cs. Perhaps I should repost this specific question in the Consumer Rights board.

savergrant

Previously discussed in this thread;
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462183/roaming-withdrawn-mid-use#Comment_80196106

PHK

TMSG said:

PHK said:

I think it’s quite clear. If over the last 120 days you’ve used more roaming than in the UK then you’ll start to be charged for roaming. 

If you don’t have a balance then you’ll not be able to make calls or send texts. 

Thanks for answering. So you think that passage will not be applied retrospectively. I was and am inclined to think the same but I have more than once found that my thinking (or assumptions) and companies' interpretation of their T&Cs is not always compatible. Sometimes this may well be because I'm simply too dense to understand them but at other times they are perhaps just not entirely clear. Better safe than sorry?

I'd hoped that perhaps someone has been through this before and knows how this is dealt with  but it's probably better to try to contact them directly.

And I'd really like to know whether such a rule shouldn't be part of their explicit T&Cs. Companies are very quick to point to them when it helps them but OTOH they have an obligation (IMO) to provide a precise and complete set of T&Cs. Perhaps I should repost this specific question in the Consumer Rights board.

It can't be applied retrospectively to roaming unless you have previously been abroad in the 120 day period. Although, UK use is obviously retrospective as its needed for the comparison of the last 120 days.

It seems straightforward. If I am abroad then they'll look at how much I used roaming in the last 120 days and how much I used  in the UK. If roaming is more than in the UK then they'll charge per call/text/data.

As for the terms and conditions. If you thought they were wrong or unfaur and you've been disadvantaged  then you've two options. Either, follow Lebara's complaints process or take them to court. 

I would say that four months seems a reasonable time to determine if someone is based in the UK.

For other purposes it's often less.

TMSG

PHK said:

TMSG said:

And I'd really like to know whether such a rule shouldn't be part of their explicit T&Cs. Companies are very quick to point to them when it helps them but OTOH they have an obligation (IMO) to provide a precise and complete set of T&Cs. Perhaps I should repost this specific question in the Consumer Rights board.

As for the terms and conditions. If you thought they were wrong or unfaur and you've been disadvantaged  then you've two options. Either, follow Lebara's complaints process or take them to court. 

I would say that four months seems a reasonable time to determine if someone is based in the UK.

For other purposes it's often less.

You are misunderstanding what I am asking. I have no problems with anything in the actual T&Cs and I also don't think that 120 day rule is unreasonable (actually I think it's quite good).

My problem/question is whether such an important clause (which can cost an unwary user quite some money if roaming for a while... some've spent £11,000 ) should be mentioned somewhere in the T&Cs. It isn't ATM (though it's mentioned on another Lebara webpage but this page is not part of their official T&Cs and may not be seen even by someone who specifically checks the T&Cs) and I am asking myself whether this omission is acceptable.

If it is deemed acceptable then a customer, in addition to reading the published T&Cs, would have to read through every single page on a company's website, just to make sure they don't overlook some restriction or condition.

TMSG

@savergrant Thank you... that was probably the thread where I had seen this mentioned though I'd just skimmed it back then. The OP there is not wrong... in a way Lebara are forcing people to create unnecessary traffic/calls/texts just to make sure that this rule doesn't kick in when they're roaming.  So be it.

PHK

TMSG said:

PHK said:

TMSG said:

And I'd really like to know whether such a rule shouldn't be part of their explicit T&Cs. Companies are very quick to point to them when it helps them but OTOH they have an obligation (IMO) to provide a precise and complete set of T&Cs. Perhaps I should repost this specific question in the Consumer Rights board.

As for the terms and conditions. If you thought they were wrong or unfaur and you've been disadvantaged  then you've two options. Either, follow Lebara's complaints process or take them to court. 

I would say that four months seems a reasonable time to determine if someone is based in the UK.

For other purposes it's often less.

You are misunderstanding what I am asking. I have no problems with anything in the actual T&Cs and I also don't think that 120 day rule is unreasonable (actually I think it's quite good).

My problem/question is whether such an important clause (which can cost an unwary user quite some money if roaming for a while... some've spent £11,000 ) should be mentioned somewhere in the T&Cs. It isn't ATM (though it's mentioned on another Lebara webpage but this page is not part of their official T&Cs and may not be seen even by someone who specifically checks the T&Cs) and I am asking myself whether this omission is acceptable.

If it is deemed acceptable then a customer, in addition to reading the published T&Cs, would have to read through every single page on a company's website, just to make sure they don't overlook some restriction or condition.

Therefore you think the terms and conditions are incorrect as you clearly believe they should include the reasonable use clause.

TMSG

@PHK No, I do not think that the terms and conditions are incorrect. Rather, I've asked myself and then asked this board whether they are incomplete or not. IOW I am not at all sure what to make of the situation and that is why I was asking.

I think I'll give up.

savergrant

TMSG said:

@savergrant Thank you... that was probably the thread where I had seen this mentioned though I'd just skimmed it back then. The OP there is not wrong... in a way Lebara are forcing people to create unnecessary traffic/calls/texts just to make sure that this rule doesn't kick in when they're roaming.  So be it.

For me it would make much more sense if it was based on the number of days you were using it in/out of UK. If your phone is connecting to the UK network for 100 days out of each 120 then you are a uk based customer whether you are using 1mb or 100gb per day. It doesn't sound fair to say you have to use more data at home first or you can't use it abroad.

TMSG

@savergrant Yes, that seems to make more sense but we're not the ones deciding this. So long as Lebara stick with the rule as currently defined users wanting to avoid this "trap" will have to create enough UK traffic to balance their usage abroad within those 120 days.

OTOH you don't have to use more data at home first ... as I understand it this can also happen after a trip so long as it's all happening within the 120 day window.