Amazon want me to contact the police instead of refunding me

Undervalued

Okell said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times...

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

The poster is stating the facts of the case as they would appear to the judge in small claims should you decide to bring a case... it would do you no good for us to all lie to you about the merits and weaknesses of your position. 

As it stands, Amazon can 'prove' delivery - you can't prove non receipt - ...

Following on from my previous post, have I missed somewhere that Amazon can prove delivery to the OP?

(Apologies if I have missed it)

The Consumer Rights Act requires that goods be delivered into the "physical possession" of the consumer.  Amazon might - or might not - have some evidence of delivery somewhere, but would it satisfy their obligation to deliver the goods into the "physical possession" of the consumer?

The wording of the legislation is quite clear.  Can Amazon prove (on the balance of probabilities) that the item was in fact delivered to the OP?  If they cannot do so (absent a signature or photo) I don't see how amazon could win.

The OP - very sensibly in my opinion - doesn't care if amazon cancels him.

Probably a badge of honour...



FWIW I do agree with you that the OP should comply with Amazon's request to report a theft to the police.  And if they say he's not a victim... well come back here and I'll suggest how to deal with that...

The paragraph I have highlighted has been debated endlessly on here. So far, nobody has been able to quote a judgement form a high enough court to set a precedent that would suggest it is anything like a literal as some might wish.

If you mean literally put into the hands of a person the courier has been able to positively identify as "the consumer" then it virtually never happens!

I struggle to believe that any court would interpret it that tightly.

Grumpy_chap

Okell said:

The (then applicable) law relating to sale of goods and passing of title in "chattels" rather  than "real" property (ie land) was very unfashionable and even commercial law (ie making mega mega mega bucks from commerce) wasn't a thing.

So I know nothing about SOGA, but I think the issues about passing of title etc were mostly about between and within  "commercial" entities.  Not o do with purchasers in their "private" role.

I'd be surprised if the law ever believed that once a contract had been formed and a purchaser had paid the agreed price thet ownership had not transferred to them

IANAL but I suspect much of the legal rules around passing of title are the same for consumer and commercial contracts.

Commercial contracts are often more complex and last over extended periods of time when compared to consumer contracts.  It gives rise to matters such as vesting certificates when title of goods transfers but remain at the supplier's premises.  Commercial payment terms also mean that goods can be delivered and payment is some time after (30 - 60 - 90 -120 - 150 -180 days) so there is a clause around title not passing until payment is made.

By contrast for many consumer contracts, the whole transaction is (for all intents and purposes) "instant".  When buying your smalls in M&S, you go to the counter, pay, and take the goods away.  The exact timing in that sequence when transfer of title occurred is moot.

The types of consumer contracts where clauses around transfer of title become relevant would be larger contracts.  Either building works or items on HP would be the obvious cases.

I can consider a case where contract had been formed and the purchaser paid the agreed price but title did not immediately transfer.  Items with a lead time.
I recently purchased a head board from John Lewis.  I paid the order and then JL arrange for the headboard to be manufactured and it was delivered 7 weeks later.  At the time I paid in full, the headboard had not been manufactured so title cannot have immediately transferred.  I assume I cannot have good title to a headboard that does not even exist.  I suspect this is actually rather more complex as the payment terms between JL and their supplier quite probably mean that JL have not paid for the headboard by the time it was delivered to my house, so JL could not have transferred title to me if they were not yet the owners of the headboard.  Yet, I paid in full 7 weeks before and consider the headboard to be fully mine.

All the above discussion does is show it is a bit complex as to when title passes, even in consumer purchases.  It does not particularly help the OP.  I suspect this is a case where the rules and laws have simply not kept up with the increase in home delivery and the practice of just leaving a delivery in full view on the doorstep for anyone to help themselves.  That is a very recent phenomenon - it is not long back we'd have to traipse to the depot to collect a missed delivery.

savefortherain

born_again said:

savefortherain said:

This has put me off doing online shopping ever again let alone Amazon. Just been down the rabbit hole with that company and wow, I will never shop there again with the way they treat their workers and the environment.

I am a victim and being made to feel like I've done something wrong. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that it has come to this, but what are my chances in a small claims court?

I mean, it's a sub £100 pc monitor. A big parcel that is being tracked. Do they really think I'd be stupid and criminal enough to try and claim it wasn't delivered when it was? An insult to my intelligence as well as being out of pocket.

Just simply report to the police, even if it's via action fraud.
Fact is this is standard procedure for Amazon. It's nothing against you. They just want some proof that they can push on.

Why should I? As far as I know, no crime has been commited, it could be incompetence on the delivery driver sending it to the wrong address and some old lady taking it in thinking it's a gift from her grandson or something. It's up to Amazon to deliver the item and they have failed, despite what the email says.

For a consumer rights board, it sure does like to stick up for the billion dollar organisation.

born_again

savefortherain said:

born_again said:

savefortherain said:

This has put me off doing online shopping ever again let alone Amazon. Just been down the rabbit hole with that company and wow, I will never shop there again with the way they treat their workers and the environment.

I am a victim and being made to feel like I've done something wrong. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that it has come to this, but what are my chances in a small claims court?

I mean, it's a sub £100 pc monitor. A big parcel that is being tracked. Do they really think I'd be stupid and criminal enough to try and claim it wasn't delivered when it was? An insult to my intelligence as well as being out of pocket.

Just simply report to the police, even if it's via action fraud.
Fact is this is standard procedure for Amazon. It's nothing against you. They just want some proof that they can push on.

Why should I? As far as I know, no crime has been commited, it could be incompetence on the delivery driver sending it to the wrong address and some old lady taking it in thinking it's a gift from her grandson or something. It's up to Amazon to deliver the item and they have failed, despite what the email says.

For a consumer rights board, it sure does like to stick up for the billion dollar organisation.

Sadly if you are more than prepared to bite you nose of to spite you face so be it..

Compared to simply not reporting to police as Amazon are asking you to 🤷‍♀️

As you are someone who should have received the item & Amazon are saying it has been delivered. Not sure how you work out no crime has been committed?

Not defending Amazon here. This is their procedure, if you want your refund, then you have little choice.
Ring 101 or do it online @ action fraud. 

ArbitraryRandom

Undervalued said:

Okell said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times...

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

The poster is stating the facts of the case as they would appear to the judge in small claims should you decide to bring a case... it would do you no good for us to all lie to you about the merits and weaknesses of your position. 

As it stands, Amazon can 'prove' delivery - you can't prove non receipt - ...

Following on from my previous post, have I missed somewhere that Amazon can prove delivery to the OP?

(Apologies if I have missed it)

The Consumer Rights Act requires that goods be delivered into the "physical possession" of the consumer.  Amazon might - or might not - have some evidence of delivery somewhere, but would it satisfy their obligation to deliver the goods into the "physical possession" of the consumer?

The wording of the legislation is quite clear.  Can Amazon prove (on the balance of probabilities) that the item was in fact delivered to the OP?  If they cannot do so (absent a signature or photo) I don't see how amazon could win.

The OP - very sensibly in my opinion - doesn't care if amazon cancels him.

Probably a badge of honour...



FWIW I do agree with you that the OP should comply with Amazon's request to report a theft to the police.  And if they say he's not a victim... well come back here and I'll suggest how to deal with that...

The paragraph I have highlighted has been debated endlessly on here. So far, nobody has been able to quote a judgement form a high enough court to set a precedent that would suggest it is anything like a literal as some might wish.

If you mean literally put into the hands of a person the courier has been able to positively identify as "the consumer" then it virtually never happens!

I struggle to believe that any court would interpret it that tightly.

Interesting reading Evri's terms - their standard contract definitions includes: "Delivered" means delivered to the Recipient at the Address or left with a Neighbour or left in a Safe Place.

And I've been reading online (unverified) that sometimes the tracking link they send you by text includes an automatic agreement to the terms if you click on it (which feels a little misleading/deceptive to me). 

Undervalued

savefortherain said:

born_again said:

savefortherain said:

This has put me off doing online shopping ever again let alone Amazon. Just been down the rabbit hole with that company and wow, I will never shop there again with the way they treat their workers and the environment.

I am a victim and being made to feel like I've done something wrong. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that it has come to this, but what are my chances in a small claims court?

I mean, it's a sub £100 pc monitor. A big parcel that is being tracked. Do they really think I'd be stupid and criminal enough to try and claim it wasn't delivered when it was? An insult to my intelligence as well as being out of pocket.

Just simply report to the police, even if it's via action fraud.
Fact is this is standard procedure for Amazon. It's nothing against you. They just want some proof that they can push on.

Why should I? As far as I know, no crime has been commited, it could be incompetence on the delivery driver sending it to the wrong address and some old lady taking it in thinking it's a gift from her grandson or something. It's up to Amazon to deliver the item and they have failed, despite what the email says.

For a consumer rights board, it sure does like to stick up for the billion dollar organisation.

You don't get it, do you?

 It is not a case of "stick[ing] up for the billion dollar organisation"!

If this gets to court (which is unlikely) they almost certainly have at least have some evidence, from their tracking system, that the parcel was scanned near your front door. Although that doesn't prove it was delivered you have only your word that it wasn't. As I said earlier, it will be decided on the balance of probability which at the moment is on their side.

If you do as they ask and formally report stolen they will very likely refund you. 

saintscouple

Apologies for jumping in here, but i have just received the same email.

Yesterday i had a delivery of various parcels, one should have been for a high value item, to which i gave the driver a 6 digit code as requested. 
However only when the driver left did i notice the high value parcel was missing, and only this parcel. 

Fortunately i have video doorbell footage of the driver which shows he must have scanned the items in the van, and left this parcel there, as it shows him carrying the parcels from the van, direct to my door, and then leaving immediately after. 

However even with this evidence and photos of the parcels delivered, Amazons initial response was it has been delivered as the driver scanned it and i gave the code. 

Pushing it more, i get the OP´s response that it must have been stolen by a 3rd party and i need to report it to the police and give them the crime reference number (i´ve processed an online form with my local police to obtain this - thinking by 3rd party they mean the driver could have been an agency driver if there is such a thing)

Thinking this could be the resolution - police give me the crime reference, i give this to amazon, they refund. I now read this article and fearing this could be a long drawn out process. 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/nov/14/amazon-shows-contempt-for-uk-law-over-parcel-thefts

Anyone else been in this situation and actually had a resolution?

Thanks

savefortherain

born_again said:

savefortherain said:

born_again said:

savefortherain said:

This has put me off doing online shopping ever again let alone Amazon. Just been down the rabbit hole with that company and wow, I will never shop there again with the way they treat their workers and the environment.

I am a victim and being made to feel like I've done something wrong. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that it has come to this, but what are my chances in a small claims court?

I mean, it's a sub £100 pc monitor. A big parcel that is being tracked. Do they really think I'd be stupid and criminal enough to try and claim it wasn't delivered when it was? An insult to my intelligence as well as being out of pocket.

Just simply report to the police, even if it's via action fraud.
Fact is this is standard procedure for Amazon. It's nothing against you. They just want some proof that they can push on.

Why should I? As far as I know, no crime has been commited, it could be incompetence on the delivery driver sending it to the wrong address and some old lady taking it in thinking it's a gift from her grandson or something. It's up to Amazon to deliver the item and they have failed, despite what the email says.

For a consumer rights board, it sure does like to stick up for the billion dollar organisation.

Sadly if you are more than prepared to bite you nose of to spite you face so be it..

Compared to simply not reporting to police as Amazon are asking you to 🤷‍♀️

As you are someone who should have received the item & Amazon are saying it has been delivered. Not sure how you work out no crime has been committed?

Not defending Amazon here. This is their procedure, if you want your refund, then you have little choice.
Ring 101 or do it online @ action fraud. 

I literally just stated in the post why a crime may not have been committed. You again stick up for the company that has literally had newspaper articles about it abusing UK law and consumer rights.

This is clearly not a consumer rights board as much as Amazon isn't a customer focused retailer. Sad times.

born_again

I'm not sticking up for Amazon (& no I don't work for them)

In these cases & there have been other threads on the same subject. Amazons policy is they require a police report.
Very much like we do in certain cases, before we will deal.

So if you want your refund. Just report it. 🤷‍♀️

It could have been done on a single phone call to 101 👍

saintscouple

saintscouple said:

Apologies for jumping in here, but i have just received the same email.

Yesterday i had a delivery of various parcels, one should have been for a high value item, to which i gave the driver a 6 digit code as requested. 
However only when the driver left did i notice the high value parcel was missing, and only this parcel. 

Fortunately i have video doorbell footage of the driver which shows he must have scanned the items in the van, and left this parcel there, as it shows him carrying the parcels from the van, direct to my door, and then leaving immediately after. 

However even with this evidence and photos of the parcels delivered, Amazons initial response was it has been delivered as the driver scanned it and i gave the code. 

Pushing it more, i get the OP´s response that it must have been stolen by a 3rd party and i need to report it to the police and give them the crime reference number (i´ve processed an online form with my local police to obtain this - thinking by 3rd party they mean the driver could have been an agency driver if there is such a thing)

Thinking this could be the resolution - police give me the crime reference, i give this to amazon, they refund. I now read this article and fearing this could be a long drawn out process. 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/nov/14/amazon-shows-contempt-for-uk-law-over-parcel-thefts

Anyone else been in this situation and actually had a resolution?

Thanks

I sent Amazon a copy of the police report this morning detailing the date, time, crime reference number, investigating officer name, badge number, and contact details. 

Almost immediately i get this response from the Amazon exec team - 

This is Jessica with Amazon’s Executive Relations team.

We can inform, thank you for sending the requested police report.

However, we see the below 2 points are missing from the report.

- The delivery address regarding this incident.

- The items were delivered according to the carrier tracking.

Kindly re-send the Police Report with all the requested information.

We will help you in resolving your concerns.

Thank you for your patience and co-operation.

I shall not lie to the police and say the item was delivered as per tracking as it was not.... the item was never handed to me. 
I said this in my reply and verified again, although tracking shows the delivery driver scanned the item at my address, he did so in the van, and the parcel never left the van - video footage proving this has been presented more than once.

I'm getting fed up now - can anyone verify how long i have to wait to make a section 75 claim, is it 14 days? 

Thank you