Amazon want me to contact the police instead of refunding me

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Okell said:

m0bov said:

Its a civel matter, so contact your card provider, you have not been handed the goods so they have not been stolen from you. Also, you have no evidence they have been stolen either.

 I'd be surprised if ownership and title to the goods had not already been successfully transferred to the OP after (1) they had paid for the goods and (2) a contract had been formed between them and Amazon.

That's a good point, Amazon's T&Cs don't appear to state when title passes, I don't really under the bits in the SOGA regarding titles and transfer of goods.

PHK

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

savefortherain

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times.

A thought occurred to me (yes, just the one). When I ordered the replacement from ebuyer, the driver (dpd I think) took a photo, I assume for proof. Will Amazon have such a photo? I'd be fascinated to see it and who took in my delivery (I live alone in a house and as I said, I was in all day when the email came through). They obviously don't have my signature either. All they have is an email they sent me saying it was handed to recipient. Which is an outright lie. I am gobsmacked this is happening with anyone other than some dodgy ebay seller. With Amazon. The leaders in customer service!!

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

ArbitraryRandom

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times...

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

The poster is stating the facts of the case as they would appear to the judge in small claims should you decide to bring a case... it would do you no good for us to all lie to you about the merits and weaknesses of your position. 

As it stands, Amazon can 'prove' delivery - you can't prove non receipt - and your unwillingness to report the matter to local authorities doesn't help establish your case. 

That said, I'd recommend at least trying a charge-back before spending money filing a claim with the courts... you'll probably lose as you have no evidence, but you never know. 

Undervalued

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times.

A thought occurred to me (yes, just the one). When I ordered the replacement from ebuyer, the driver (dpd I think) took a photo, I assume for proof. Will Amazon have such a photo? I'd be fascinated to see it and who took in my delivery (I live alone in a house and as I said, I was in all day when the email came through). They obviously don't have my signature either. All they have is an email they sent me saying it was handed to recipient. Which is an outright lie. I am gobsmacked this is happening with anyone other than some dodgy ebay seller. With Amazon. The leaders in customer service!!

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

So you would prefer wrong advice that is easy on the ear?

If it ends up in legal action and goes to court it will be decided "on the balance of probability". That is often viewed as 51%.

Was it (supposedly) delivered by Amazon themselves or by another courier? I buy from Amazon fairly often and I can not recall ever having to sign for a delivery made by one of their "Prime" vans. They seem to use a variety of phrases such as "handed to resident", "put through letterbox", "left in safe place" etc and occasionally they have used the wrong phrase on my deliveries. They normally scan the item when carrying it to the door and I think that is automatically GPS logged. As far as I know they do not routinely photograph unlike some other firms.

In any case a photograph of a parcel on a doorstep doesn't prove it wasn't take away again (nor does a GPS log) only that it was at the right place at that moment. However it helps tip the balance of probability.

A popular scam is for a thief to intercept the driver in the driveway "just got back in time mate, glad I caught you" but this is more common on high value items fraudulently ordered such as expensive mobile phones. That is a difficult one as even the couriers that routinely photograph tend to just take a picture of the parcel in front of the door or house number. They don't photograph faces.

born_again

savefortherain said:

This has put me off doing online shopping ever again let alone Amazon. Just been down the rabbit hole with that company and wow, I will never shop there again with the way they treat their workers and the environment.

I am a victim and being made to feel like I've done something wrong. I have to pick my jaw up off the floor that it has come to this, but what are my chances in a small claims court?

I mean, it's a sub £100 pc monitor. A big parcel that is being tracked. Do they really think I'd be stupid and criminal enough to try and claim it wasn't delivered when it was? An insult to my intelligence as well as being out of pocket.

Is this a actual Amazon purchase, or via a marketplace seller?

If it was delivered by a Amazon courier, then they will have GPS location of the delivery. I would also expect other couriers will have the same facility.

Okell

PHK said:

... Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery ...

Apologies if I've missed it, but do we know that for a fact?

What Amazon told the OP - according to the OP's initial post was:

"... Based on our investigation [ my bold for emphasis] and your statements, it seems that the item has been stolen by a third party / tampered with... "

I understand that to mean that Amazon, based on their investigation and the OP's statements, have come to the conclusion that a third party has either stolen or tampered with the monitor.

I'm not sure what other evidence you think the OP needs to provide to Amazon (or a court, given Amazon's email admission) to establish that Amazon are liable?

Okell

ArbitraryRandom said:

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times...

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

The poster is stating the facts of the case as they would appear to the judge in small claims should you decide to bring a case... it would do you no good for us to all lie to you about the merits and weaknesses of your position. 

As it stands, Amazon can 'prove' delivery - you can't prove non receipt - ...

Following on from my previous post, have I missed somewhere that Amazon can prove delivery to the OP?

(Apologies if I have missed it)

The Consumer Rights Act requires that goods be delivered into the "physical possession" of the consumer.  Amazon might - or might not - have some evidence of delivery somewhere, but would it satisfy their obligation to deliver the goods into the "physical possession" of the consumer?

The wording of the legislation is quite clear.  Can Amazon prove (on the balance of probabilities) that the item was in fact delivered to the OP?  If they cannot do so (absent a signature or photo) I don't see how amazon could win.

The OP - very sensibly in my opinion - doesn't care if amazon cancels him.

Probably a badge of honour...



FWIW I do agree with you that the OP should comply with Amazon's request to report a theft to the police.  And if they say he's not a victim... well come back here and I'll suggest how to deal with that...

Okell

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Okell said:

m0bov said:

Its a civel matter, so contact your card provider, you have not been handed the goods so they have not been stolen from you. Also, you have no evidence they have been stolen either.

 I'd be surprised if ownership and title to the goods had not already been successfully transferred to the OP after (1) they had paid for the goods and (2) a contract had been formed between them and Amazon.

That's a good point, Amazon's T&Cs don't appear to state when title passes, I don't really under the bits in the SOGA regarding titles and transfer of goods.

I'm going back now to when I was a law student over 40 years ago.

The (then applicable) law relating to sale of goods and passing of title in "chattels" rather  than "real" property (ie land) was very unfashionable and even commercial law (ie making mega mega mega bucks from commerce) wasn't a thing.

So I know nothing about SOGA, but I think the issues about passing of title etc were mostly about between and within  "commercial" entities.  Not o do with purchasers in their "private" role.

I'd be surprised if the law ever believed that once a contract had been formed and a purchaser had paid the agreed price thet ownership had not transferred to them

ArbitraryRandom

Okell said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

savefortherain said:

PHK said:

I think the issue here is that Amazon have a delivery notification  and then some time later a refund request. I can see why they think they can show theft.

With hindsight the OP should have immediately been in contact with Amazon the moment they got the delivery notification.

Now we have Amazon with proof of delivery and the OP saying it wasn't. To evidence their side the OP will either need to provide some proof or report it to the police. 

Alternatively they can get bogged down in arguing that title didn't pass and possibly end up in legal action. 

I got in touch a day or two later as I was hoping it would turn up. There is absolutely nothing unusual about that. I like how you're sticking up for the billion dollar organisation, on a consumer rights board, no less. Crazy times...

They are just giving automated responses with every email I send to them so legal action is looking more and more likely. It's only a hundred notes but it's a matter of principle. They can't be allowed to get away with this, they could try this on someone much more fragile than me and this is causing me unnecessary grief in these tough times.

The poster is stating the facts of the case as they would appear to the judge in small claims should you decide to bring a case... it would do you no good for us to all lie to you about the merits and weaknesses of your position. 

As it stands, Amazon can 'prove' delivery - you can't prove non receipt - ...

Following on from my previous post, have I missed somewhere that Amazon can prove delivery to the OP?

The wording of the legislation is quite clear.  Can Amazon prove (on the balance of probabilities) that the item was in fact delivered to the OP?  If they cannot do so (absent a signature or photo) I don't see how amazon could win.

The OP says Amazon's system says the carrier recorded the parcel being "delivered and handed to recipient", which fulfils the requirements of 'delivered', so I would suggest it probably depends on if that is supported by GPS/tracking (given this is fairly standard since covid).

Amazon have carried out their own investigation (probably asking the carrier to confirm with the driver and it being confirmed) and the OP is unwilling to involve the police to aid the investigation... which I have no problem with, but means they're at deadlock. 

So face of it, delivery person vs OP is 50/50 - add in GPS/tracking showing it going out on the right van at the right time/to the right address (with the OP confirming it wasn't received by a close neighbour) and I think that shifts the balance of probability at least <51% to Amazon.